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Michael Brown Shooting

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Mike! said:
Speaking only for myself, I think it's the way the claim is made as an indisputable "fact" and then later ignored completely when proven wrong. I, myself, have zero problem openly admitting mistakes, here or in the non-digital realm. I view it as part of the constant learning process. If one openly admits to a mistake, "Well that was stupid, don't want to do that again.", it's also an open acknowledgment of a willingness to self correct. Always a good quality!
If one ignores the mistake, as if pretending the claim or mistake never even happened, It then appears one hasn't learned from it, and is likely to continue making that same mistake again and again in the future. After all, if it wasn't a mistake, why change or learn from it?
Backpedaling comes off as trying to back shift the scenario to suit the original, now proven incorrect claim, as opposed to simply admitting they were wrong in the first place and picking up the narrative from there. Seems like it'd be so much easier, and spare the trouble of wiping egg from ones face.
Then again, there are those here who seem to wear their egg proudly too.
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It's a good strength that not a lot of people have, Mike.
 
Monketey Ghost said:
As to the swelling, the officer could have smacked his face on his car door for all we know.
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That would mostly depend on which version of events one goes with. At one point Johnson says the door only opened an inch or so. Despite what it looks like on the computer monitor, I guarantee Wilson is a three dimensional being who's head is thicker than a inch or so.
For it to happen, the door would have to be open a great deal more in order for, 1) his head to pass through the opening, and 2) Allow the door to gain enough momentum to inflict injury. Plus, the injury from a door frame would be a long, thinner impact than a fist would make.
 
LTC8K6 said:
Well, Johnson's account would make that impossible as the door opened only an inch before it rebounded closed, and the fight was on.
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It's pretty easy to imagine Wilson pulling alongside the two kids, opening his door into them to get out, then Brown shoving it closed, hitting his face (which would explain why Wilson could have been enraged enough to shoot Brown). It's also been the stories from all of the witnesses that they were "tussling" in the window of the car. Either scenario is consistent with what witnesses say.
 
Now that things have calmed down, the media coverage is pretty much grandstanding.

And, of course, the news networks are taking potshots at each other, with Fox News and MSNBC exchanging their usual volleys over the coverage.
 
lobosrul said:
The DoJ does have the authority to investigate local law enforcement agencies. They certainly don't look at every single shooting, as the UK does (apparently).

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/front...tigations-into-police-departments-nationwide/

I'm also not exactly sure what powers they wield in those cases. Whether they can disband a police force, or prosecute any police officer in said force.
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In theory, I think a shooting might not automatically be referred. In practice, the police forces refer themselves in shootings - which are rare in this country.

https://www.ipcc.gov.uk/complaints/referral

Complaints that must be referred to the IPCC:
allegations that the conduct complained of led to someone dying or being seriously injured
complaints which fall within the mandatory referral criteria (see below)

Conduct matters that must be referred to the IPCC:
conduct that has led to someone dying or being seriously injured
matters which fall within the mandatory referral criteria (see below)

Appropriate authorities must also make referrals when the IPCC requires the matter to be referred. This is regardless of whether the matter is already being investigated or if the IPCC has considered it previously.

Referral of death or serious injury (DSI) matters:

All DSI matters must be referred to the IPCC.

A DSI matter means any circumstances in which a person has died or sustained serious injury and:
had been arrested or was otherwise detained in custody at the time
had contact of any kind with a person serving with the police that may have caused or contributed to the death or serious injury.

Mandatory referral criteria

The appropriate authority must refer complaints and conduct matters involving:
serious assault
serious sexual offence
serious corruption
criminal offence or behaviour that would lead to misconduct proceedings and that is aggravated by discriminatory behaviour on the grounds of a person’s race, sex, religion or other status identified in the IPCC Statutory Guidance
certain types of criminal offence (known as relevant offences)
complaints or conduct matters which are alleged to have arisen from the same incident as anything falling within these criteria
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BenBurch said:
If CNN has vetted this, I believe it. It fits the observed facts.
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No broken bones fits the observed facts better than broken bones ? How so ?

What if the Washington Post vetted their facts ?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...cuffle-with-michael-brown-family-friend-says/
The officer who fatally shot an unarmed Ferguson youth suffered a fracture to his eye bone in a scuffle with Michael Brown, according to a family friend.

The hospital X-rays of the injury have been submitted to the St. Louis County prosecuting attorney, and will be shared with a grand jury now weighing evidence to determine if Officer Darren Wilson should be charged in the shooting.


Or ABC ?
http://abcnews.go.com/US/ferguson-shooting-grand-jury-decide-october-charge-cop/story?id=25047905
The Ferguson police officer who shot and killed an unarmed teenager suffered “a serious facial injury” in the altercation before firing the fatal shots, according to a source close to the officer who spoke to ABC News today.


A swollen face doesn't easily fit the bill for a “a serious facial injury” , although I suppose it could.
 
Unabogie said:
Well, now it's just you. ;)

It's not my narrative. There are multiple witnesses who all saw the same thing. On the other side, there's Darren Wilson. In order to believe his version, all the other people must be lying. Their two versions of the events are not close enough to be explained away by unreliable witnesses. Either Brown was "charging Wilson at full speed", as "Josie" says is Wilson's claim, or he was on his knees. They can't both be true. <snip>
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Maybe not at the same time, but they could certainly both be true at different points in the process.

I don't see why having been shot three or four times while he was approaching ("charging" if some insist) the officer couldn't result in him being brought to his knees.

And there's no reason he couldn't have been hit a couple more times as that was happening. Including in the top of the head.

I haven't heard any description from any witnesses that indicated Wilson was shooting slowly and deliberately. If memory serves (it often doesn't) the first description I heard was that it was like a machine gun firing.

Admittedly the average person probably doesn't know what that really sounds like, or realize just how fast a semi-automatic or even revolver can be fired, but I don't see why Brown couldn't have caught the last two rounds as he was going down from the first bunch, and still be moving toward the officer as he did.

Mind you, I'm not committed to one scenario as opposed to any other, and I haven't decided yet how I feel about this incident, because I don't believe I know enough yet to make a call.

Still, that doesn't prevent me from conceding that some scenarios are feasible, simply because they don't put Brown in the best possible light.
 
LTC8K6 said:
Well, Johnson's account would make that impossible as the door opened only an inch before it rebounded closed, and the fight was on.
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Really? I hit my head on my car door while it is closed if I'm not careful when I lean out to get the mail. I imagine if my mailbox was a 200+ pound 18 year old and I was trying to apprehend, rather than just pulling my mail out, it would be even easier to get banged up. I imagine that is why cops rarely advise doing so.
 
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TheL8Elvis said:
No broken bones fits the observed facts better than broken bones ? How so ?

...
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In 1984 I was in a car wreck where I had almost exactly the injury claimed. I wasn't only swollen, I was purple, and was by the time firefighters arrived to cut me out of the wreck. I had been unconscious for a time, and do not remember much at all about it until the ER.

Even had my feet not been dislocated, I would not have been able to pace around the accident scene for hours.

ETA: For you conspiracy theorists out there, the wreck was 9/11/84 at around 7:45 AM...
 
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BenBurch said:
In 1984 I was in a car wreck where I had almost exactly the injury claimed. I wasn't only swollen, I was purple, and was by the time firefighters arrived to cut me out of the wreck. I had been unconscious for a time, and do not remember much at all about it until the ER.

Even had my feet not been dislocated, I would not have been able to pace around the accident scene for hours.
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Are you under the impression that Officer Wilson paced around the scene for hours afterward?
 
Upchurch said:
It seems odd, then, that people (in this thread and in the world in general) have already reached conclusions about what happened on that street. It remains a possibility, as with most big cases, that we may never definitively know what happened.

We do largely know what was said and what has happened after the shooting and, for me, that has largely resulted in a loss of credibility for all the parties involved. Short of a yet-unseen start-to-finish video of the event, I don't see how this could resolve itself in a way that won't leave some pretty big questions.
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So you have also discounted the eye witnesses? Not a single one of them is credible?
 
Dr. Keith said:
Really? I hit my head on my car door while it is closed if I'm not careful when I lean out to get the mail. I imagine if my mailbox was a 200+ pound 18 year old and I was trying to apprehend my mailbox, rather than just pulling my mail out, it would be even easier to get banged up. I imagine that is why cops rarely advise doing so.
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Heck, the officer might have done it that morning on the way to work and was just starting to show swelling by happenstance.
 
BenBurch said:
In 1984 I was in a car wreck where I had almost exactly the injury claimed. I wasn't only swollen, I was purple, and was by the time firefighters arrived to cut me out of the wreck. I had been unconscious for a time, and do not remember much at all about it until the ER.

Even had my feet not been dislocated, I would not have been able to pace around the accident scene for hours.

ETA: For you conspiracy theorists out there, the wreck was 9/11/84 at around 7:45 AM...
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OK, due to personal anecdote you don't believe Wilson could have been on the scene for any period of time after sustaining a fractured orbital.

That's fine, just no reason for any one besides yourself to agree with it, right ?

Also, I don't know that Wilson was on the scene for any more than 5-10 minutes after the shooting.

Can anyone say for certain how long he was on the scene ?
 
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BenBurch said:
Yes, there is video of him pacing about. I presume he was there during most of the "investigation".

I don't think I would have been able to WALK after this injury.
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...I was under the impression he was off the scene rather quickly and the fellow folks are referring to is not the same officer who shot Brown.
 
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