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Michael Brown Shooting

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Ladewig said:
That may very well be true in many or even most cases.

The part that irks me is what you describe has absolutely nothing to do with this case. We KNOW that much more evidence is forthcoming, yet some people are making all sorts of conclusions based on the very, very limited evidence we do have.

It is as if the prosecuting and defense attorneys have not yet finished their opening statements and some jury members are ready to have a vote.
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Exactly what i mean, that's part of humans being unreasonable. Although i do agree more evidence is forthcoming, i don't think it's going to be ground-breaking and conclusively settle the debate one way or the other. If a case is brought to court, the jury will have to consider all evidence and decide if they believe Wilson or not. Unless some other as yet unreleased video appears, which seems unlikely.
 
LTC8K6 said:
Running towards Wilson and falling is also consistent with the limited autopsy results that we have.

As are a few other scenarios that have been noted. :)
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Why would he run towards Wilson, and what evidence do we have that he did? Last time I checked, all of the eyewitness testimony said that Wilson had been chasing and shooting at Brown until Brown stopped, turned around, and put his hands in the air, and Wilson advanced on him and shot him, and continued to pump shots into him until he was on the ground.
 
Axiom_Blade said:
Why would he run towards Wilson, and what evidence do we have that he did? Last time I checked, all of the eyewitness testimony said that Wilson had been chasing and shooting at Brown until Brown stopped, turned around, and put his hands in the air, and Wilson advanced on him and shot him, and continued to pump shots into him until he was on the ground.
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Why would he rob a convenience store? Who knows.
 
Axiom_Blade said:
Why would he run towards Wilson, and what evidence do we have that he did? Last time I checked, all of the eyewitness testimony said that Wilson had been chasing and shooting at Brown until Brown stopped, turned around, and put his hands in the air, and Wilson advanced on him and shot him, and continued to pump shots into him until he was on the ground.
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All of those witnesses can be safely ignored because of something, something, "Oprah". Or maybe it's because of some crazy lady who said something crazy and no one challenged her while the cameras were rolling. Or something. Whatever it is, we can ignore any and all witnesses who dispute what Darren Wilson says because REASONS.
 
LTC8K6 said:
Is it possible that Wilson had X-rays that were negative, but later had a cat scan which revealed the injury?

IOW, Wilson had been hit in the face, so they took xray pics, but those didn't show any broken bones.

I have read that xray pics are not the best for spotting orbital floor fractures.

So perhaps Wilson goes home from the hospital, but it becomes clear that he has more of a problem than a swollen eye, and he goes back and gets a cat scan, and then they find the injury.

The problem I have with that scenario is that it seems to me they'd just go right to a cat scan if Wilson comes in with a swollen face. They wouldn't bother with trying to get a good xray image of his eye socket if they could do a cat scan, would they?
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They might not even need the CAT scan or another set of x-ray for the initial diagnosis to be 'not broken' and the actual case to be 'broken'.

When I was sixteen I feel down a flight of stairs on my back. I was carried out and taken to the hospital on a backboard (made of OSB!) where they did x-rays and (after four hours on this damn board) they said nothing was broken and I'd be fine. I still had to see a sports medicine specialist to be cleared for football a week later. I fell during the half hour break between double practices, 8 hours then 7 hours. My back hurt bad. There I was, sitting on the sidelines of practices for hours, the pain being excruciating, and the team telling me I was faking.

Come the appointment with the sports medicine specialist and he puts up the x-rays. The same x-rays the hospital took the day I fell. I ask what the black line was, assuming it was an error or something because it was so obvious. He told me that was the break. I had actually made the break worse walking around and sitting on the ground watching practices for that week as well. I spent the next six months in a brace, in lots of pain, and have issues with it to this day. There are still people on that football team absolutely convinced I faked it.

So it's not implausible that there are two confidential sources who have information that contradicts but is both true. No fracture found that night, but actually a fracture there.

Not that it actually matters that much. Either way there is a facial injury speaking to assault. If he was hit hard enough to break bone or not doesn't change that it's evidence of assault/fighting.

EDIT: Wow, typed completely the wrong numbers for the double practices. They were 7 in the morning till 9 at night with a half hour break.
 
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tyr_13 said:
They might not even need the CAT scan or another set of x-ray for the initial diagnosis to be 'not broken' and the actual case to be 'broken'.

When I was sixteen I feel down a flight of stairs on my back. I was carried out and taken to the hospital on a backboard (made of OSB!) where they did x-rays and (after four hours on this damn board) they said nothing was broken and I'd be fine. I still had to see a sports medicine specialist to be cleared for football a week later. I fell during the half hour break between double practices, 8 hours then 7 hours. My back hurt bad. There I was, sitting on the sidelines of practices for hours, the pain being excruciating, and the team telling me I was faking.

Come the appointment with the sports medicine specialist and he puts up the x-rays. The same x-rays the hospital took the day I fell. I ask what the black line was, assuming it was an error or something because it was so obvious. He told me that was the break. I had actually made the break worse walking around and sitting on the ground watching practices for that week as well. I spent the next six months in a brace, in lots of pain, and have issues with it to this day. There are still people on that football team absolutely convinced I faked it.

So it's not implausible that there are two confidential sources who have information that contradicts but is both true. No fracture found that night, but actually a fracture there.

Not that it actually matters that much. Either way there is a facial injury speaking to assault. If he was hit hard enough to break bone or not doesn't change that it's evidence of assault/fighting.
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Great story illustrating a good point.

I'm still waiting for better word on what if any injuries the officer actually sustained. A vague report of "swelling" that could have happened any of fifteen ways, including the officer clumsily falling down, doesn't do much for me.
 
Ladewig said:
That may very well be true in many or even most cases.

The part that irks me is what you describe has absolutely nothing to do with this case. We KNOW that much more evidence is forthcoming, yet some people are making all sorts of conclusions based on the very, very limited evidence we do have.

It is as if the prosecuting and defense attorneys have not yet finished their opening statements and some jury members are ready to have a vote.
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To the credit of many in this thread, there are some who while speculating from time to time, are clear that they are speculating and haven't drawn firm or even flimsy conclusions. They've been open to counter arguments, criticisms, and new information.

But you're right that many are drawing actual conclusions, defending them poorly, dismissing other reasoning, and attacking people who haven't made firm conclusions as if they had. It's frustrating.

There are still aspects to discuss without all the evidence yet, but some people are getting way too attached to their conclusions and arguments. And as always, we have the same arguments about the nature of evidence, just with some of the people making which arguments shuffled around.
 
Axiom_Blade said:
Why would he run towards Wilson, and what evidence do we have that he did? Last time I checked, all of the eyewitness testimony said that Wilson had been chasing and shooting at Brown until Brown stopped, turned around, and put his hands in the air, and Wilson advanced on him and shot him, and continued to pump shots into him until he was on the ground.
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It's just a possible scenario. I'm not on the jury. :)

Well, your scenario requires more shots fired than we have heard of, I believe.

1 while at the vehicle - generally accepted

several while pursuing

6 after Brown turns around - autopsy
 
Axiom_Blade said:
Why would he run towards Wilson, and what evidence do we have that he did? Last time I checked, all of the eyewitness testimony said that Wilson had been chasing and shooting at Brown until Brown stopped, turned around, and put his hands in the air, and Wilson advanced on him and shot him, and continued to pump shots into him until he was on the ground.
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Historically juries do not like to convict police officers for murder. I mentioned the case when I was a kid, in Brooklyn back in the 1960s. Two cops named Walker and Pepitone. Witnesses said Walker chased after an unarmed kid running after the car he was driving -- which was stolen -- was pulled over. Witnesses said Walker chased him, appeared to be catching up but then drew his gun, fired and killed him. Walker claimed the kid drew a knife. Witnesses said Walker planted the knife after the shooting. Walker's own partner testified against him. He said they were chasing after the kid, Walker drew his gun and fired. Pepitone said he had no idea why Walker did that. There was no knife. The knife found at the scene was planted by Walker. He carried it with him for that purpose. To some people Pepitone was a standup guy.

Except the jury believed Walker and he was acquitted. News columnist Jimmy Breslin wrote about the case. He wrote about how afterwards Pepitone was shunned by fellow officers. He had garbage dumped in his locker, no one wanted to work with him. I think he finally resigned. One of the cops, speaking anonymously, told Breslin, "We weren't asking Pepitone to lie. To say he saw the knife. We were asking him to just keep his mouth shut. To say he didn't know what happened. That's all."
 
When a trial comes down to conflicting testimony of a police officer vs a dirtbag, the jury will believe the officer. Anyone who testifies against a police officer is by definition a dirtbag.
 
Is it just me, or does anyone else here think that there is a ****-ton of evidence that hasn't been released yet? Shell casings, locations of everything, injuries to Wilson and Brown, etc...
 
Unabogie said:
How so? He says Michael Brown was down on his knees and Wilson shot him 3 or 4 more times, was 20-25 feet away, and was not a threat.
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That can be explained by Brown being in the act of falling when Brady saw the scene again. Brady not seeing the "charge", only the ending, would explain it.

I don't see the problem with the distance.

Brady apparently says Brown ran up to the car window and began punching on Wilson, in comments during a video he took.

Brady has Johnson well away from the struggle at the window. This contradicts Johnson.

Brady did not hear a shot during the struggle, which could mean that the gun was well inside the vehicle when it discharged, which points to a fight over the gun, imo.

Overall, I don't see anything bad for Wilson there, and I see some good for Wilson.

There's no bombshell in there either way, though.
 
sir drinks-a-lot said:
Is it just me, or does anyone else here think that there is a ****-ton of evidence that hasn't been released yet? Shell casings, locations of everything, injuries to Wilson and Brown, etc...
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Absolutely. But that's on the FPD, who have done everything they can to resist releasing information. The police chief even claimed he didn't even know the number of times Brown was shot. They are instead engaging in selective leaks to favorable outlets like right wing blogs and Fox News in order to get a version of the story out there that's favorable to Wilson. The only things we have publicly are the autopsy and the word of multiple witnesses who were there.

Is it just me, or is there something weird about people who have decided to reject any eyewitness testimony as being inherently suspect, just because of the color/social status of the people who saw the shooting?
 
Kestrel said:
When a trial comes down to conflicting testimony of a police officer vs a dirtbag, the jury will believe the officer. Anyone who testifies against a police officer is by definition a dirtbag.
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Monketey Ghost said:
:confused: Can you expand on this?
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I thought I already had.

newyorkguy said:
<snip> Walker claimed the kid drew a knife. Witnesses said Walker planted the knife after the shooting. Walker's own partner testified against him. He said they were chasing after the kid, Walker drew his gun and fired. Pepitone said he had no idea why Walker did that. There was no knife. The knife found at the scene was planted by Walker. He carried it with him for that purpose. To some people Pepitone was a standup guy. Except the jury believed Walker and he was acquitted.
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It might be that people in an exciting circumstance are notoriously unreliable witnesses regardless of race.
 
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