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Michael Brown Shooting

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Cain said:
Imagine a filled out, 6'4" white guy stomps into a liquor store, grabs a bottle of Jack and waltzes out. The immigrant storekeeper tries to stop him, but the mountain of man grabs a fistful of shirt and grumbles "back off." He saunters down the street pleased with himself, casually disregarding laws big and small and jaywalks when --

A police SUV drives by.

This is Darren Wilson. He's 28, married and black. Sometimes it's difficult being a black man in white community, especially since this community's hostile to the police, but Wilson's been on the force for six years without incident, and even received a commendation for his service.

Wilson tells the jaywalker to stay out of the street, and the two men soon jaw each other. That's when Wilson recognizes the liquor bottle...

[**** goes down]

Wilson and his young wife flee town. They've received death threats.
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Yep, exactly.

Bravo.

I'd love to travel to that alternate universe for an hour and just print out as many headlines from the major news media, Huffington Post, etc. as possible. As well as pages of the thread about it here, if there even was one.

ETA: I'd particularly love to see what people were saying about that predominantly white community out rioting, and doing chants about wanting the black officer dead, demanding his name, media showing his house, etc. They'd be portrayed as the worst, most vile racists in the country and a national mark of shame.
 
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They probably sat Johnson down and talked to him a lot about immunity, and about his power to stop the destruction in his own community which was just getting worse and worse.

"Look, Darion, we know you want to protect the memory of your friend. We understand that, believe me. But there comes a time when you have to just come clean... you're the one who can put an end to all this and stop the bloodshed, and we have a lot of credible witnesses telling us something which matches what the officer said. We know you've already lied and been caught in it before. Do you want to be caught in a lie again, or do you want to get out ahead of it, do the right thing, and do it while you can still secure an immunity deal?"

Etc.

IF there's anything to this new rumor.
 
Skeptic Tank said:
They probably sat Johnson down and talked to him a lot about immunity, and about his power to stop the destruction in his own community which was just getting worse and worse.

"Look, Darion, we know you want to protect the memory of your friend. We understand that, believe me. But there comes a time when you have to just come clean... you're the one who can put an end to all this and stop the bloodshed, and we have a lot of credible witnesses telling us something which matches what the officer said. We know you've already lied and been caught in it before. Do you want to be caught in a lie again, or do you want to get out ahead of it, do the right thing, and do it while you can still secure an immunity deal?"

Etc.

IF there's anything to this new rumor.
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Or they beat him with a phone book until he agreed to change his story.

Bet I know which theory will take off around here. :D
 
The Central Scrutinizer said:
I doubt the credibility of that site, but didn't I hear/read somewhere that Johnson had an outstanding warrant? I'm assuming it's not for a felony, or he would already be in jail, one would think.
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Oh, it has no credibility, but there was so much buzz I figured I'd post it.

You never know what an interrogation can bring out, though.

If such a big story was scooped in a Facebook post, I'll eat my hat.
 
The Central Scrutinizer said:
I saw a posting on Facebook this evening, purporting to show Brown "paying" for his purchase, by leaning all the way across the counter. Now, I'm pretty sure I've been in hundreds (if not thousands) of stores in my life, and witnessed thousands (if not tens of thousands) of customers paying, and I don't recall a single one paying in anything but an upright position.
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Michael, the gentle giant, paid the ultimate price. The world is now safer from petty shoplifting, but made poorer nonetheless.

(That was a snippet from my newest e-book, "Baby Daddy Down," available soon at e-retailers near you.)
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Oh, I see, you all say it's real, I post evidence it's not and say, "I think it's time to call this story a fake" and that makes you all good skeptics for "waiting".

:rolleyes:

Let's look at that. Upon what evidence are you considering the story true? [crickets]

I've listed the evidence why I don't think is it.

You really can't see the difference?
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When did I say it was true? See, that's the difference, I am not saying it's true or false. You seem to feel you have proven it false, which many of us find absolutely hilarious, but par considering the source.
 
Skeptic Tank said:
Yep, exactly.

Bravo.

I'd love to travel to that alternate universe for an hour and just print out as many headlines from the major news media, Huffington Post, etc. as possible. As well as pages of the thread about it here, if there even was one.

ETA: I'd particularly love to see what people were saying about that predominantly white community out rioting, and doing chants about wanting the black officer dead, demanding his name, media showing his house, etc. They'd be portrayed as the worst, most vile racists in the country and a national mark of shame.
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So, in this 'alternate universe', were the whites former slaves who had been subjected to hundreds years of blatant and not-so-blatant discrimination and mistreatment? Not that context matters...
 
stanfr said:
So, in this 'alternate universe', were the whites former slaves who had been subjected to hundreds years of blatant and not-so-blatant discrimination and mistreatment? Not that context matters...
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You do realize there were a massive number of white slaves (particularly from my ethnicity, as a matter of fact) in the colonial period right? And that they were treated worse than black slaves?

And that a tiny percentage of slaves taken from Africa were ever taken to North America? Here's an article by none other than Henry Louis Gates, Jr. about it:

"Between 1525 and 1866, in the entire history of the slave trade to the New World, according to the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade Database, 12.5 million Africans were shipped to the New World. 10.7 million survived the dreaded Middle Passage, disembarking in North America, the Caribbean and South America.

And how many of these 10.7 million Africans were shipped directly to North America? Only about 388,000. That's right: a tiny percentage. "
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And that conditions here as compared to the other far more likely destinations (Staying in Africa as a slave to other Africans, going to Muslim lands, Central & South America, Caribbean) were the best possible option? The slaves taken to America were the lucky ones (relatively speaking.)

Of course, being the "lucky ones" among slaves isn't much of a distinction and nobody denies that slavery was an awful institution. No informed person denies that it was pretty much universal to all of humanity for all of history, until guess who finally ended it after participating far less than others? Yep, whitey. To the point of shedding oceans of white blood in the American civil war to end the practice here, and British ships hunting down slavers on the high seas, etc.

Looking at Africa today, and Haiti today, and Detroit today... and the entire planet today, I am unaware of any compelling evidence which would point toward a "systemic history of slavery and white oppression blah blah blah" type of explanation for what Ferguson is like. As far as I can tell, this is just how African societies are. Whether it's looting Ebola blankets and having sex with infants to try to cure AIDS, burning witches and putting gasoline filled rubber tires around people's shoulders then lighting them (Nelson Mandela's wife was a proponent of this) or looting the local convenience store and looting the public coffers in Detroit and Philadelphia and D.C... I am awaiting evidence for this ever so popular "white men did it" view of the black condition.

All people have suffered. All people have enslaved and been enslaved. All have raided and been raided, conquered and been conquered, killed and been killed.

Other immigrant groups have come to the US and prospered despite being treated horribly, including my own.

ETA: I talked about slavery being ended as though it doesn't still go on today, it does... and a lot of it is in Africa.
 
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stanfr said:
So, in this 'alternate universe', were the whites former slaves who had been subjected to hundreds years of blatant and not-so-blatant discrimination and mistreatment? Not that context matters...
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Exactly. Because slavery.
 
MattusMaximus said:
Physician, heal thyself.
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I don't need healing, I've been very clear about what evidence I've based conclusions on and I'm willing to change conclusions when more evidence is available.

Drawing some conclusions with some evidence ≠ drawing a conclusion about blood on a shirt not being there when the shirt is hidden away in an evidence room. He make a direct claim, Johnson is lying about seeing blood on Brown's shirt after the first shot. And we don't know what is on the shirt.

I know people would like to think a shove is evidence of the potential to kill a cop, and anyone not agreeing must also think it's fine to steal or threaten store clerks. Straw men are so much easier to battle.

Of course that's no different from saying an autopsy and three eyewitness accounts point to the cop using excessive force, but naturally that's not evidence, after all, the witnesses are all black. :rolleyes:

I've already gone over the cumulative evidence the orbital fracture story is fake. There are 4 separate lines of evidence for that conclusion.

So go ahead, tell me I should think black young men with petty criminal histories is clear evidence of dangerous thugs that would charge at a cop shooting a gun at them.

Tell me a shot to the top of the head is more likely the result of a person bull rushing a shooting cop than a young man already hit four times trying to get on the ground to surrender.

Tell me I'm just as biased because of the evidence I've weighed as relevant here.

I don't care. I'm comfortable I am looking at the evidence.
 
stanfr said:
So, in this 'alternate universe', were the whites former slaves who had been subjected to hundreds years of blatant and not-so-blatant discrimination and mistreatment? Not that context matters...
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Well considering slavery was abolished in 1865, that'd be pretty difficult.
 
ProBonoShill said:
Well considering slavery was abolished in 1865, that'd be pretty difficult.
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Forced segregation in the U.S. didn't end until 1964, just a generation ago. To think that there wouldn't be some lingering cultural issues related to that is pretty obtuse or naive. Add to that a healthy dose of incompetence clearly on display by the behavior of the Ferguson police and how they've handled the situation (snipers on armored carriers for the first peaceful protests, not to mention arresting journalists in a McDonalds - seriously?), and it isn't hard to see how things got to where they are now.
 
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Skeptic Ginger said:
I don't need healing, I've been very clear about what evidence I've based conclusions on and I'm willing to change conclusions when more evidence is available.

Drawing some conclusions with some evidence ≠ drawing a conclusion about blood on a shirt not being there when the shirt is hidden away in an evidence room. He make a direct claim, Johnson is lying about seeing blood on Brown's shirt after the first shot. And we don't know what is on the shirt.

I know people would like to think a shove is evidence of the potential to kill a cop, and anyone not agreeing must also think it's fine to steal or threaten store clerks. Straw men are so much easier to battle.

Of course that's no different from saying an autopsy and three eyewitness accounts point to the cop using excessive force, but naturally that's not evidence, after all, the witnesses are all black. :rolleyes:

I've already gone over the cumulative evidence the orbital fracture story is fake. There are 4 separate lines of evidence for that conclusion.

So go ahead, tell me I should think black young men with petty criminal histories is clear evidence of dangerous thugs that would charge at a cop shooting a gun at them.

Tell me a shot to the top of the head is more likely the result of a person bull rushing a shooting cop than a young man already hit four times trying to get on the ground to surrender.

Tell me I'm just as biased because of the evidence I've weighed as relevant here.

I don't care. I'm comfortable I am looking at the evidence.
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CSI by Internet. Why hire forensic specialists?
 
Cylinder said:
The evidence of the medical report or multiple sources reporting on a medical report which would still merit an asterisk. Is it fair to mark your claim down as fraud?
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You do know the only people reporting on the eye socket fracture are quoting the same Gateway Pundit source, right? Did you think the right wing echo-sphere actually multiplies sources?

Cylinder said:
My claim is that it is undetermined. I'm basing that claim on the lack of a medical report and the fact that the police have not released a fuller picture of the evidence.
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So no evidence supporting or contradicting a source known to fabricate evidence is evidence they aren't fabricating evidence now?

Cylinder said:
I also evaluate the claim as plausible given the circumstance that he was taken to hospital and treated for facial injury and the claims made through the radio caller and confirmed as accurate by various news organizations with that asterisk.
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And the caller just happened not to mention something as significant as a facial bone fracture?

Cylinder said:
I would quibble that even if the claim is false, your claim is false as well because it's not based in objective fact just as anyone here who claims the assertion as objective truth. I don't get the Nobel Prize for predicting negative curvature until I show my objective proofs.
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Is that backtracking and doubling down in the same paragraph?
 
ProBonoShill said:
Well considering slavery was abolished in 1865, that'd be pretty difficult.
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Yeah... because once slavery was abolished there was never anything else that could be considered discriminatory or mistreatement of black folks...
 
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