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Michael Brown Shooting

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casebro said:
I think there will be plenty of time for that when the trials of the two officers start. Though I believe those officers were county, not Ferguson.

eta- I guess you start a separate thread on it- "Police illegally rough up and detain two journalists"
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I was trying to make a point relevant to this case, not start a thread. What did you think of my point outside you don't want to discuss it?
 
David Wong said:
This is why I think everyone involved is going to come away unsatisfied with the outcome of a trial - it's going to come down to analyzing a split-second decision made by Wilson, based on how several witnesses at the scene describe Brown's actions in his final moments (did Wilson reasonably perceive he was still under threat, etc). I don't think he'll walk but I have a suspicion he's going to wind up with a charge like the BART station shooter wound up with - I think he did 11 months - after having pleaded it down...
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I guess I'm naturally suspicious of the police in this kind of case. I lived in East Harlem, a tough low-income neighborhood in New York City, for a couple of years in the 1980s and that made a believer out of me. I saw the police do things I still don't believe. I saw them do things that I knew, even as I was watching it, that no one would believe it. I accept the two women witnesses -- well I the one I saw interviewed anyway -- as credible. I have no reason to doubt their stories. I'm willing to listen to the police's side but I'm concerned we're nine days into this and they still haven't bothered to tell anyone their side.

IMO there is too much brutality. At times some cops are way too rough. They need to tone it down. If a jury decides Darren Wilson committed murder my hope is it might be the start of a campaign to get the cops to take it a little easy with people. It has to come from the top. Then something good will have come out of this.

The incident on BART in Oakland I do believe the officer made an honest mistake. He thought he was pulling his taser -- he had just been issued a taser -- from his belt and instead drew his revolver. I can believe that. But he took a man's life and I thought he needed to be held responsible. He was.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
And now we are back to the charging like a bull which I don't buy and you want to sell.

Dead end.



Yes, why?
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You label it " charging like a bull ", giving the impression of someone bent forward at 45 degrees or more looking at the ground as he runs, is that what you mean by that? Could you post an image of someone " charging like a bull"?

I posted a goofy old photo in post 2120 of a man who looks like Curly from the three stooges in a charging pose. Is that what you mean by " charging like a bull"?

Look at the image a little, and tell me if you think a bullet fired at that man could quite easily strike the top of his head.
 
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I dismiss the "threat" idea out of hand because the coup de grace was delivered to a prone person with his chin tucked to his chest and abrasions to his face indicating he was face down.

That isn't a person threatening to an armed man in any way, shape, or form.

What he threatened, I believe, was the cop's masculinity. I believe they had words.
 
BenBurch said:
I dismiss the "threat" idea out of hand because the coup de grace was delivered to a prone person with his chin tucked to his chest and abrasions to his face indicating he was face down.

That isn't a person threatening to an armed man in any way, shape, or form.

What he threatened, I believe, was the cop's masculinity. I believe they had words.
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You know he was lying on the ground when he was shot on the head? How?
 
http://news.yahoo.com/kkk-disowns-kkk-fundraiser-darren-wilson-165046965.html
The KKK is soliciting money to help out the officer who shot Brown.

Last week, a so-called Imperial Wizard for the Ku Klux Klan sent an email soliciting funds for Darren Wilson, ....

The email was obtained by Hatewatch, a blog by the Southern Poverty Law Center:

"We are setting up a reward/fund for the police officer who shot this thug. He is a hero! We need more white cops who are anti-Zog and willing to put Jewish controlled black thugs in their place. Most cops are cowards and do nothing while 90% of interracial crime is black (and non-white) on white."
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It's not surprising that an organization known for their hatred of African Americans would unequivocally support a white police officer who has killed one, as the Klan demonizes the black community as a threat to law and order.

The fundraising email is actually in violation of the traditional Klan constitution, according to another Imperial Wizard, Frank Ancona.

There are a lot of these little fragmented groups, and when you kick someone out for bad behavior, once someone is kicked out, we call it a banishment, they can decide they want to start their own thing.
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I wonder what Darren Wilson thinks about this? Can't be good for anyone's image when a group of people everyone loves to hate calls you a hero.

Ranb
 
newyorkguy said:
I guess I'm naturally suspicious of the police in this kind of case. I lived in East Harlem, a tough low-income neighborhood in New York City, for a couple of years in the 1980s and that made a believer out of me. I saw the police do things I still don't believe. I saw them do things that I knew, even as I was watching it, that no one would believe it. I accept the two women witnesses -- well I the one I saw interviewed anyway -- as credible. I have no reason to doubt their stories. I'm willing to listen to the police's side but I'm concerned we're nine days into this and they still haven't bothered to tell anyone their side.

IMO there is too much brutality. At times some cops are way too rough. They need to tone it down. If a jury decides Darren Wilson committed murder my hope is it might be the start of a campaign to get the cops to take it a little easy with people. It has to come from the top. Then something good will have come out of this.

The incident on BART in Oakland I do believe the officer made an honest mistake. He thought he was pulling his taser -- he had just been issued a taser -- from his belt and instead drew his revolver. I can believe that. But he took a man's life and I thought he needed to be held responsible. He was.
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You do realize that what you are essentially saying is " I am biased against Police "?
 
BenBurch said:
Autopsy. Entry wound determined to be fatal was to the top of the head, exit wound through the eye, re-entry wound on the upper chest. A 5' something cop cannot shoot a standing man in that fashion. He was down at the time of the killing shot.
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This was part of my response to Skeptic Ginger:

If he was falling forward, the top of the head would have ended up in the space that was previously occupied by the forehead, that Wilson observed when he fired the gun.

Do you need a diagram?


Not saying this is exactly what happened, but it is just as likely as your guess...
 
BenBurch said:
Autopsy. Entry wound determined to be fatal was to the top of the head, exit wound through the eye, re-entry wound on the upper chest. A 5' something cop cannot shoot a standing man in that fashion. He was down at the time of the killing shot.
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Bullets travel in the body (especially where there is a lot of bone to ricochet from). If the bullet exited Mr. Browns eye socket whilst he was face down on the pavement it should be lodged in the macadam right under his face, no?
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Time yourself pushing a car door and running 30 or so feet, then turning around. It's enough time for swelling and redness to begin if someone punched a person in the face. You can see capillary ruptures right away with a microscope. Any tissue damage while the heart is still beating is going to show on microscopic exam on an autopsy.

And I think you missed this morning's press conference with Dr Baden. He said he couldn't say why Brown's head was bent over, but he could say it was, and Brown dropped leaving abrasions on the face that showed he dropped, combined with the brain injury making that head shot the kill shot.
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I have not seen any affirmative statement by the persons performing the various autopsies that Brown's hand did not show any evidence of capillary ruptures. Have you?
 
David Wong said:
I mean I'm totally open to the idea that the officer just lost his head and started shooting, due to rage or adrenaline or panic or whatever causes a person to do that. But I guess I don't understand why the alternative - that Brown did something in the moment that the officer at least perceived was a threatening move - has been dismissed out of hand.

I guess it's because most of the witnesses at the scene (who've spoken to the media so far - I only know of three and one was Brown's accomplice in the robbery) don't mention a last-second move by Brown to lunge at the officer?

I guess I'm biased in favor of the police because "shooting in a blind panic" seems more plausible to me than "shooting in cold blood." Most police officers go their entire careers without ever shooting someone, it's not a decision you take lightly. It's certainly the first guy Wilson has ever shot, or we'd have heard all about it by now.
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Nobody is dismissing your version out of hand. It's just that you're not including the alternate version. Which is roughly, Brown running from the car, Wilson firing and missing Brown but the shots whizzing past Brown convince him that he should give up. Brown turns around to face Wilson and starts to tell Wilson that he is unarmed and to stop shooting him before Wilson shoots him again.

And, yes, this is based on what the witnesses said.

I think we're all in agreement about Wilson shooting in a blind panic. But was it still excessive?
 
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