Michael Brown Shooting

[Mike!]

Did you stop, turn around and say a few taunts?

It doesn't matter, the damage is done at the time of the blow, the body doesn't delay the response.

This argument is a waste of time.

Are you expecting me to punch someone, run 35 feet and then check my knuckles? Cause that ain't happenin' lady! I'll only go though so much for this forum, and that crosses the line.

 

[Distracted1]

I paced it off in my hallway. From a standing start, I made it in 2.5 seconds. It's not a lot of distance to cover.

I'm normal weight, height, and normal fitness level.

Did you slow down to avoid striking the wall too hard?

 

[Kaosium]

Brown's mother is posting in the thread?

If people want to gripe about the family or the neighbors then they need to be clear they are not addressing people in the thread.

It's a position taken by primary players in the debate which is not limited to this thread and is germane to the discussion of it.

I hadn't realized you considered yourself on a 'side' anyway.

 

[David Wong]

The problem is, we know with a fair degree of confidence that Michael Brown did at least three very dumb things in the previous ten minutes: he robbed a convenience store and intimidated his way out of the shop in front of a video camera; he then walked down the middle of the road, attracting the attention of a police patrol car; and then he entered into an altercation with the police officer. These things make it very hard to rule out further dumb behaviour, especially since Brown was just 18 years old.

I mean I'm totally open to the idea that the officer just lost his head and started shooting, due to rage or adrenaline or panic or whatever causes a person to do that. But I guess I don't understand why the alternative - that Brown did something in the moment that the officer at least perceived was a threatening move - has been dismissed out of hand.

I guess it's because most of the witnesses at the scene (who've spoken to the media so far - I only know of three and one was Brown's accomplice in the robbery) don't mention a last-second move by Brown to lunge at the officer?

I guess I'm biased in favor of the police because "shooting in a blind panic" seems more plausible to me than "shooting in cold blood." Most police officers go their entire careers without ever shooting someone, it's not a decision you take lightly. It's certainly the first guy Wilson has ever shot, or we'd have heard all about it by now.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Average person.....30 feet.......1 to 3 seconds....

Care to retract?

Yes, you should. Even the world record for the 10 yard dash is more than one second.

Standard Times for the 10 and 20 yard dash

A 250 pound person in above average shape will take 2 seconds. I doubt Brown was in good shape. There still needs to be time to get away, run, turn, stop and taunt.

 

[Distracted1]

If Brown was going down, why is it hard for you to imagine that Wilson targeted or was seeing forehead, but the bullet struck the top of the head?



Have you ever seen a hand with a fresh gunshot wound?

Why even assume that the head shot was targeted at all?
If the head shot was right where officer Wilson was aiming then I guess the intent was to first strke the hand, then put four in the arm, followed by one in the right eye etc..

More likely he aimed for the middle and that's where they landed, no?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

The problem is, we know with a fair degree of confidence that Michael Brown did at least three very dumb things in the previous ten minutes: he robbed a convenience store and intimidated his way out of the shop in front of a video camera; he then walked down the middle of the road, attracting the attention of a police patrol car; and then he entered into an altercation with the police officer. These things make it very hard to rule out further dumb behaviour, especially since Brown was just 18 years old.

Brown: Dumb, yes. Insane, no evidence.
Wilson: Dumb, yes. Pissed off, likely.

 

[Distracted1]

I'm not talking about a bruise. I'm talking about microscopic capillary damage.

If the officer's face was injured by a fist, that fist would have hit the face hard enough to also be damaged. Getting shot a minute or a few minutes later (by the way, according to Josie that included time for Brown to turn, taunt Wilson, then charge at him) still leaves enough time for microscopic capillary damage.

What if it was 10 to 15 seconds doc?
Enough time?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

If Brown was going down, why is it hard for you to imagine that Wilson targeted or was seeing forehead, but the bullet struck the top of the head?

And now we are back to the charging like a bull which I don't buy and you want to sell.

Dead end.

Have you ever seen a hand with a fresh gunshot wound?

Yes, why?

 

[David Wong]

That was mentioned. That Wilson blew his fuse because Brown had put his hands on him, possibly punched him in the eye, possibly tried to grab his gun, and he got out of the car and shot Brown down. That's pretty much what the eyewitnesses have said happened. I'm not sure how the police are going to be able to prove something different. But experience tells me in these kinds of cases the police officer usually, not always, but usually walks.

I go all the way back to a case in Brooklyn where a cop was accused of killing an unarmed teenaged car thief by shooting him in the back. His own partner testified against him and he still walked!

This is why I think everyone involved is going to come away unsatisfied with the outcome of a trial - it's going to come down to analyzing a split-second decision made by Wilson, based on how several witnesses at the scene describe Brown's actions in his final moments (did Wilson reasonably perceive he was still under threat, etc). I don't think he'll walk but I have a suspicion he's going to wind up with a charge like the BART station shooter wound up with - I think he did 11 months - after having pleaded it down.

I am not an attorney at all, this is just from having followed a lot of these stories. I don't think they'll be able to make a murder charge stick but if the witness testimony goes the other way I don't think he'll walk, either.

Nobody's going to be happy.

 

[ProBonoShill]

Then why does Wilson shoot him in that scenario?

Don't you know all cops are racist scum who shoot friendly, law abiding black kids for fun. In broad daylight no less.

 

[Mike!]

This is why I think everyone involved is going to come away unsatisfied with the outcome of a trial - it's going to come down to analyzing a split-second decision made by Wilson, based on how several witnesses at the scene describe Brown's actions in his final moments (did Wilson reasonably perceive he was still under threat, etc). I don't think he'll walk but I have a suspicion he's going to wind up with a charge like the BART station shooter wound up with - I think he did 11 months - after having pleaded it down.

I am not an attorney at all, this is just from having followed a lot of these stories. I don't think they'll be able to make a murder charge stick but if the witness testimony goes the other way I don't think he'll walk, either.

Nobody's going to be happy.

The lawyers will be.

 

[Distracted1]

Yes, you should. Even the world record for the 10 yard dash is more than one second.

Standard Times for the 10 and 20 yard dash

A 250 pound person in above average shape will take 2 seconds. I doubt Brown was in good shape. There still needs to be time to get away, run, turn, stop and taunt.

One Mississippi......two Mississippi.......nana nana boo boo! ....one Mississippi......" Freeze" ( possibly )..........bang. Bang. Bang. Bang. Bang. Bang.

Ten seconds?

 

[GWCarver]

Ok, is there some hard evidence that proves that Wilson began firing when Brown was at least 30 feet away, or is that just more speculation?

No hard evidence. The County Attorney said the evidence will be released when the Grand Jury comes back with a true bill or no true bill. Until then we will have to be content with rampant speculation based on hearsay and other creative ways to analyze this case.

 

[dudalb]

The problem is, we know with a fair degree of confidence that Michael Brown did at least three very dumb things in the previous ten minutes: he robbed a convenience store and intimidated his way out of the shop in front of a video camera; he then walked down the middle of the road, attracting the attention of a police patrol car; and then he entered into an altercation with the police officer. These things make it very hard to rule out further dumb behaviour, especially since Brown was just 18 years old.

Which is why the people who say the possible traces of pot in his body is irrevlent are wrong. He might have done thinghs while high he would not otherwise have done. Marijuana is like alchohol;it impacts different people in different ways. The idea it automatically makes people mellow is B.S.;I can tell you from personal experience.

 

[Ammonitida]

I'm not talking about a bruise. I'm talking about microscopic capillary damage.

If the officer's face was injured by a fist, that fist would have hit the face hard enough to also be damaged. Getting shot a minute or a few minutes later (by the way, according to Josie that included time for Brown to turn, taunt Wilson, then charge at him) still leaves enough time for microscopic capillary damage.

If Wilson has medical evidence to support his claim that his face was injured during the confrontation, and also claims that this injury came from one of Brown's fists, I will be inclined to believe him, and not your silly alternate scenario (that the door hit his face which is not supported by any of your infallible "witnesses"). This stuff about "he would have had microscopic injuries on his knuckles that the examiner would have certainly detected" sounds a whole lot like "shaky forensics". Any empirical evidence to support your belief?

Ah, don't bother. Unless there's a face print from Wilson on that door, then I will never believe your scenario, EVER!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Skeptical Greg]

And now we are back to the charging like a bull which I don't buy and you want to sell.

Dead end.

Why charging like a bull? If he was falling forward, the top of the head would have ended up in the space that was previously occupied by the forehead, that Wilson observed when he fired the gun.

Do you need a diagram?


Have you ever seen a hand with a fresh gunshot wound?

Yes, why?

Was there no adjacent trauma that might have obscured other swelling or injuries?

Was Brown's hand wound clean, with no adjacent trauma? Any bones broken ( shattered ) ?

 

[JihadJane]

I guess I'm biased in favor of the police because "shooting in a blind panic" seems more plausible to me than "shooting in cold blood." Most police officers go their entire careers without ever shooting someone, it's not a decision you take lightly. It's certainly the first guy Wilson has ever shot, or we'd have heard all about it by now.

White police shoot people, particularly young black people, because they know that they can get away with it.

Murderers only need to kill once to be classified as murderers.

 

[Nick Terry]

I mean I'm totally open to the idea that the officer just lost his head and started shooting, due to rage or adrenaline or panic or whatever causes a person to do that. But I guess I don't understand why the alternative - that Brown did something in the moment that the officer at least perceived was a threatening move - has been dismissed out of hand.

I guess it's because most of the witnesses at the scene (who've spoken to the media so far - I only know of three and one was Brown's accomplice in the robbery) don't mention a last-second move by Brown to lunge at the officer?

I guess I'm biased in favor of the police because "shooting in a blind panic" seems more plausible to me than "shooting in cold blood." Most police officers go their entire careers without ever shooting someone, it's not a decision you take lightly. It's certainly the first guy Wilson has ever shot, or we'd have heard all about it by now.

This pretty much sums up my position.

 

[casebro]

No hard evidence. The County Attorney said the evidence will be released when the Grand Jury comes back with a true bill or no true bill. Until then we will have to be content with rampant speculation based on hearsay and other creative ways to analyze this case.

Though Bader seems to be telling all as soon as he acquires it. (can they gag him?)

But all we know of the tox reprot is that he was positive for pot. What else was he positive for?