Michael Brown Shooting

[Giz]

The idea that Brown was a criminal but his shooting was unjustified seems to beyond the ability of some people to grasp.

It's because people are arguing from emotion. They don't, can't, won't, have the object of their sympathy seem unworthy of their emotional investment in him.

Which is a shame and unnecessary, as civics 101 is: the law should protect even those who are unsympathetic characters.

 

[jimbob]

It's because people are arguing from emotion. They don't, can't, won't, have the object of their sympathy seem unworthy of their emotional investment in him.

Which is a shame and unnecessary, as civics 101 is: the law should protect even those who are unsympathetic characters.

I've disagreed with you in other threads, but this is the nub of it

Brown's previous actions didn't affect the policeman's decisions if the policeman wasn't aware of them.

And we hold the police to a higher level of behaviour compared to the general population because they are public servants in a position of power and trust.

I also don't think it idealistic to require police to be less likely to use deadly force than members of the general public, as confrontation will be part of their expected job.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

The "facts" of the case have not been verified. What "facts" are you referring to?

3. Even if Mr. Brown was guilty of the robbery (and there is zero evidence of that)...

Even the family's attorney has conceded that the Gentle Giant^(tm) robbed the convenience store.

 

[Brainster]

Exactly, 3Point14. The idea that Brown was a criminal but his shooting was unjustified seems to beyond the ability of some people to grasp.

His shooting might have been unjustified. If some of the claims of the eyewitnesses turn out to be true, then I would be willing to agree that Brown did not deserve to be shot:

1. If he was shot while holding his hands up and freezing.
2. If he was shot while kneeling.
3. If he was shot while prone.

Some of these claims may be testable by forensic investigation. If he was shot while prone from 35 feet away, for example, the bullet wound would have entered from either the top of the head or shoulders.

Some other claims may also be testable. Was a shot fired inside the car? This would certainly tend to back up the cop's story. Was the cop injured? Again, evidence for his story.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

None of this ever would have happened if the store owner had a gun.

That's funny!

 

[Cain]

It was just a little threat and a shove. Let him have what he wants. Go back and cower in your corner and learn to take it.

Liberals only support bullying when the blacks do it.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I do love the liberal use of the word "robbery". When I hear that word, I think of a guy carrying a gun, taking what's in the bank vault or your wallet or your cash register. This seems like he got busted shoplifting cigarellos and pushed his way out.

I'm sure it's technically robbery, but whatever.

Wow. Don't let those inconvenient facts confuse the narrative.

"Officer, I realize I was driving 100 mph in a 65 mph zone, but I was in a hurry. I'm sure it's technically speeding, but whatever".

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Nobody says he did not call for back up. Some of our input describes a second cop on the scene before the "witnesses" got there. Some early speculation was that there were multiple cops/shooters. Cop #2 could very well have been in transit before shots were fired.*

SG, your speculation seems based on the premise that the "witnesses" could not possible be mistaken. My own speculation is whether there is physical evidence that could fit some stories, verify who is telling the truth, and clear up the mystery of murder vs self defense.

eta* in some neighbor hoods cops travel in pairs, two cars. Maybe Wilson knew his back up was only seconds behind him?

You cherry picked half my post. Try addressing the main issue: Cop did not properly approach the suspects if he thought they had committed a recent theft. Instead he approached the suspects as if Brown was a defiant teen.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Did you watch the video? All of it, from both cameras? This was not shoplifting at all, it was exactly what the Ferguson PD claim it was, a strong-arm robbery. You should also read the police report because it details the clerks statement:

http://www.businessinsider.com/cop-who-shot-michael-brown-didnt-know-he-was-robbery-suspect-2014-8

Shoplifting is taking something, concealing it, and then trying to get out of the store undetected. The suspect in the video literally grabs the merchandise from behind the counter, walks out, and when confronted he threatens the store clerk. That's a robbery, it matters not that he only stole "cigarillos".

Reported.

Stop trying to derail the "mean white cop shoots innocent black unarmed teen for no reason" narrative with your pesky facts.

 

[ehcks]

Wow. Don't let those inconvenient facts confuse the narrative.

"Officer, I realize I was driving 100 mph in a 65 mph zone, but I was in a hurry. I'm sure it's technically speeding, but whatever".

"Yes, he was speeding, but that doesn't mean you had to shoot the guy. For jaywalking. When you didn't even know he had been speeding."

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

So which story are we to believe at this point?

Whichever one fits the nut left narrative.

 

[dudalb]

Both extremes are using the incident to validate their preconceived biases. They'll just retreat into their comfort zones rather than try and figure out a messy and uncomfortable reality.

Twas ever thus, in the skeptical politics & current events forums.

No wonder the politics and current events forums are considered to be the JREF's version of a Elephant Graveyard...where Rational Though and Logic go to die......

 

[Bikewer]

This is why I generally hesitate to post in these threads other than in terms of broad general policies and legal realities.
All speculation.
None of the facts involving the shooting itself are in evidence. We have only statements by the purported witnesses. Witnesses can be mistaken or can simply lie. We can only go with the evidence uncovered by the investigation.

Disparate statements have been issued by the Ferguson chief. On one hand, he has said that the officer who shot Brown was not responding to the robbery and was not aware of the case; that he had been on another call.
That he confronted Brown and his partner only because they were "in the middle of the street blocking traffic."
Subsequently, he indicated that the officer may have seen Brown holding the box of cigars and had become aware of the robbery report.

Which is which? It will come out in the wash.

If....Brown was confronted by the officer having just committed a Robbery In The 2nd Degree (that's what a "strongarm" robbery is... A Class B felony) one might see how a simple "Don't block the road" request by the officer might have turned into a panicked reaction.
But that too would be sheer speculation at this point.

The family attorney has conceded that Brown had committed the robbery and that the evidence was recovered from his body.

None of those facts, by themselves, justify the shooting. That will be judged on the actions of both the police officer and Brown.

 

[Giz]

1. If he was shot while holding his hands up and freezing.
2. If he was shot while kneeling.
3. If he was shot while prone.

You might be able to add:

4. If retreating, while unarmed, with hands in plain sight.

As I don't know whether it could be argued that "May otherwise endanger life or inflict serious physical injury unless arrested without delay." applied.



Definition from Missouri Standard for Use of Deadly Force, (from Reason):
http://reason.com/blog/2014/08/15/missouris-standard-for-use-of-deadly-for

3. A law enforcement officer in effecting an arrest or in preventing an escape from custody is justified in using deadly force only

(1) When such is authorized under other sections of this chapter; or

(2) When he reasonably believes that such use of deadly force is immediately necessary to effect the arrest and also reasonably believes that the person to be arrested

(a) Has committed or attempted to commit a felony; or

(b) Is attempting to escape by use of a deadly weapon; or

(c) May otherwise endanger life or inflict serious physical injury unless arrested without delay.

 

[dudalb]

Whichever one fits the nut left narrative.

Agreed, but if you go out onto the internet you see plenty of twisting to fit the nut right narrative.
Some of the attempts I have seen to justify the arresting of the Reporters is as crazy as it gets.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Do we know this is a fact or just a figment of the police officers imagination?

Do we know for a fact that Brown's hands were up in the air or is that just a figment a witness's imagination? I would expect to see pictures of the Brown with his hands in the air. Have you seen any such pictures?

I would expect to see pictures of the officer with serious injuries. Have you seen any such pictures?

Unlike the victim's family and witnesses, the police tend to hold their cards close to their vest in cases like this, instead of booking an appearance on Oprah within hours of the event. We may not see these photos (if they exist) until trial (if there is one).

 

[Skeptic Tank]

"No matter the circumstances" my eye. If this cop had blasted them both from the comfort of his cruiser for nothing more than not stepping lively when he said to stop walking down the middle of the street, I'd obviously say book the cop for murder.

This isn't that or anything near that. When I hear "pushed me into my cruiser, beat me, and tried to grab my service pistol" I stop asking a lot of questions after that point, though.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

As for grabbing the gun, that would have to have been after the cop pulled it because how would Brown have possibly hoped to reach for a holstered sidearm?

Good question. Not sure how he would be able to reach it. It's not like he was over 6 feet tall or anything.

 

[stanfr]

I'm just bummed that GWB once used coke (SG says so, so it must be true) I hate to share anything in common with that man...

 

[dudalb]

Governor's news conference has turned really ugly.

Hate to say it, but some of the No Justice,No peace types are making themselves look really, really, bad.