Michael Brown shooting II

[Monketi Ghost]

I guess I'm not sure what your point is then.
It seems like you're casting doubt on things that have been well established.
I didn't want to go through it all again, this JAQquery is seeking response though, isn't it?

 

[RandFan]

¹I guess I'm not sure what your point is then.
²It seems like you're casting doubt on things that have been well established.
³I didn't want to go through it all again, this JAQquery is seeking response though, isn't it?

1.) My point is that we don't know exactly what happened. I can find a couple of examples where police and witnesses say one thing and the video shows another.

2.) I'm pointing out that things are not always as they appear. I think we ought to admit what we know and don't know. Witness testimony is contradictory and the officers statements potentially self serving. Just because forensics (blood and bullet wounds) supports part of the testimony it does not demonstrate what Brown's state of mind was nor does it tell us if Wilson was truly in fear of his life.

If forensic psychologists could conclusively tell me why Wilson shot Brown then I would accept whatever that was. As it is I accept the outcome we have in this case. However, I don't accept that the only possible conclusion here is that Brown was intending to charge officer Wilson or that officer Wilson was reasonably in fear of his life. Was that a fair judgement based on the rules of evidence given to the GJ? I accept that the evidence likely didn't even meet the civil standard of preponderance of the evidence.

3.) I found the statement about Till and the disparagement of Brown particularly disgusting. I think there are a number of unspoken assumptions in that statement and those assumptions call for a response.

 

[Giz]

"If we could read the secret history of our enemies, we would find in each person's life sorrow and suffering enough to disarm all hostility." --Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

What a load of hippie hokum. Some times, yeah. Sometimes, no. (Wadsworth had never considered bundy or hitler.)
And sometimes a petty robber is unworthy of a civic memorial.

 

[RandFan]

What a load of hippie hokum. Some times, yeah. Sometimes, no. (Wadsworth had never considered bundy or hitler.)

Some times? Are you saying most people are the equivalent of Hitler or Bundy?

And sometimes a petty robber is unworthy of a civic memorial.

And sometimes some people cannot see beyond the Forrest for the trees. This is about much more than Brown. He has come to symbolize a society where citizens are seen as "animals" and "thugs" to harass and abuse. The Justice Departments report makes clear that the citizens of Ferguson feel under siege by the very people sworn to protect them.

Most people cannot begin to see the world through the eyes of a people who have been oppressed. Was Brown innocent? No. Was Wilson the model of professionalism and did he treat Brown with respect?

If you don't want change then the easiest thing to do is focus on Brown's crime and his atrocious behavior on the day he died. Certainly for many death isn't enough for the thug. He needs to be compared to Bundy and Hitler.

 

[Giz]

Some times? Are you saying most people are the equivalent of Hitler or Bundy?

And sometimes some people cannot see beyond the Forrest for the trees. This is about much more than Brown. He has come to symbolize a society where citizens are seen as "animals" and "thugs" to harass and abuse. The Justice Departments report makes clear that the citizens of Ferguson feel under siege by the very people sworn to protect them.

Most people cannot begin to see the world through the eyes of a people who have been oppressed. Was Brown innocent? No. Was Wilson the model of professionalism and did he treat Brown with respect?

If you don't want change then the easiest thing to do is focus on Brown's crime and his atrocious behavior on the day he died. Certainly for many death isn't enough for the thug. He needs to be compared to Bundy and Hitler.

Oh please. Your saying was trite feel good pap that had no place on a skeptics forum. And the community choose a horrible example
to rally behind, since it appears that the shooting was justified. If there is so much oppression, then it should be easy to rally behind a good example.

 

[RandFan]

Oh please. Your saying was trite feel good pap that had no place on a skeptics forum.

This is a fallacy. It's an argument by assertion. It's also an appeal to ridicule and scorn. It does nothing to rebut the argument.

Investigation of the Ferguson Police Department Report

 

[applecorped]

Oh please. Your saying was trite feel good pap that had no place on a skeptics forum. And the community choose a horrible example
to rally behind, since it appears that the shooting was justified. If there is so much oppression, then it should be easy to rally behind a good example.

this

 

[johnny karate]

While the effort is a valiant one RandFan, you're attempting to introduce nuance into a topic for which most people begins and ends with "Cop kills bad guy. Cop is a hero". I doubt you'll gain much traction.

 

[RandFan]

While the effort is a valiant one RandFan, you're attempting to introduce nuance into a topic for which most people begins and ends with "Cop kills bad guy. Cop is a hero". I doubt you'll gain much traction.

Yeah, it was a mistake.

 

[Monketi Ghost]

Yeah, it was a mistake.

It is if you agree that was an accurate characterization of your opponent's position.
You can do better than that straw.

 

[RandFan]

It is if you agree that was an accurate characterization of your opponent's position.
You can do better than that straw.

My opinion was dismissed as if there is no controversy and nothing was provided as a rebuttal. I took the post in the spirit I believe it was intended which was not to establish any definite proposition other than my arguments were not going anywhere. I think you and I can both agree that's true.

Not you BTW. You have been quite fair.

 

[johnny karate]

It is if you agree that was an accurate characterization of your opponent's position.
You can do better than that straw.

Yes, the last thing that we should tolerate in this discussion is a mischaracterization of someone else's position.

Come on people, give as much of a **** about the folks who work to keep you safe as you do about the people who attack/kill them.

Admit that this forum is a safe haven for hating on cops in thread after thread.

In my opinion some people see stories about bad cops and it makes them dismiss all cops as bad.

 

[Monketi Ghost]

Yes, the last thing that we should tolerate in this discussion is a mischaracterization of someone else's position.

LOL whose position is being mischaracterized there?

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

You think the scenarios are identical? The gun was not within his reach. Death was the only option. Not so when he was at the window of the cruiser.

A Gentle Giant^(tm) can close pretty quickly when he is charging.

People struggle with police all of the time. I'm not sure how many people charge armed officers.

I know of at least one.

 

[PhantomWolf]

I only know that the forensic evidence supports the fact that Brown was moving toward the officer. Was he stumbling? Was he trying to surrender?

The final three bullets, fired over a period of 2.5 to 3 seconds all entered Brown's head and torso on virtually identical paths, each being slightly further to the back of the skull as he came forwards. Try standing and stumbling forwards while bent at a 60-80 degree angle while keeping your head in exactly the same position, and see how long you can stay upright. Next try putting you hands in the air at that angle. Good luck on that one unless you have the world's most amazing shoulders, because it is physically impossible for a human with normal bone structure to bend over at that angle and then raise their arms up above themselves in the manner described by "Witnesses".

 

[carlitos]

Witness testimony is contradictory

Calling the tall tales and rumors that were reported by some of the "witnesses" in this case "testimony" should make you ashamed of yourself.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Calling the tall tales and rumors that were reported by some of the "witnesses" in this case "testimony" should make you ashamed of yourself.

But....but....but...Piaget Crenshaw told Oprah she saw the whole thing!!!111!!!11!

Only a racist would doubt her.

 

[Checkmite]

I think it's a beautiful and forward-looking memorial.

 

[RandFan]

‘Hands up, don’t shoot’ was built on a lie
The DOJ report notes on page 44 that Johnson “made multiple statements to the media immediately following the incident that spawned the popular narrative that Wilson shot Brown execution-style as he held up his hands in surrender.” In one of those interviews, Johnson told MSNBC that Brown was shot in the back by Wilson. It was then that Johnson said Brown stopped, turned around with his hands up and said, “I don’t have a gun, stop shooting!” And, like that, “hands up, don’t shoot” became the mantra of a movement. But it was wrong, built on a lie.


Yet this does not diminish the importance of the real issues unearthed in Ferguson by Brown’s death. Nor does it discredit what has become the larger “Black Lives Matter.” In fact, the false Ferguson narrative stuck because of concern over a distressing pattern of other police killings of unarmed African American men and boys around the time of Brown’s death. Eric Garner was killed on a Staten Island street on July 17. John Crawford III was killed in a Wal-Mart in Beavercreek, Ohio, on Aug. 5, four days before Brown. Levar Jones survived being shot by a South Carolina state trooper on Sept. 4. Tamir Rice, 12 years old, was killed in a Cleveland park on Nov. 23, the day before the Ferguson grand jury opted not to indict Wilson. Sadly, the list has grown longer.

At the end of the day you don't get to pick the matchstick that's thrown on to the gun powder.

I never claimed that Brown was a gentle giant. That's a dishonest straw man. I never claimed Brown was innocent and I even characterized his behavior as abhorrent. Do I know for a fact what happened at the scene? No. Does the evidence tend to support not indicting Wilson? I've said as much.

Chance can only come from LE and political leaders. People are not marching for the fun of it.

 

[HenryLee]

I think it's a beautiful and forward-looking memorial.

''When the legend becomes fact, print the legend.''