Michael Brown shooting II
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plague311
Great minds think...
So I am going to point out a few things that I noticed while reading Dorian Johnson's testimony. Again, I don't trust this guy as far as I could throw him, and I'm a 285 lbs. fat man.
But anyway, in his interview with the Grand Jury he makes a comment. This comment comes after Wilson and Brown have engaged each other at the car:
(Green\Hilite is mine) This doesn't seem like much of a confrontation to me, and at first Johnson kind of made it sound like he had him in a choke hold around the neck.
Off note, Johnson has been through a lot though. He said he was shot like 3 or 4 years ago, that does give some credence to the neighborhood he has lived in, but I can't remember if he had just moved to Ferguson or not. There might have been mention of that earlier in this thread. I'm not sure how much of it is hyperbole but after the gun shot he describes his physical\mental state as someone with PTSD. Hyperventilating, frozen with fear, etc.
Then after Brown has turned around, post-chase, Johnson also states:
This is before the last 2 volley's, just after Brown has turned around. I am not sure when Wilson said he had his demon face on, but the two might line up.
Pretty tough to read though that's for sure, it gets rather confusing.
ETA
ages numbers and...
He seems really back and forth with his clarity.
But anyway, in his interview with the Grand Jury he makes a comment. This comment comes after Wilson and Brown have engaged each other at the car:
p. 114Dorian Johnson said:
(Green\Hilite is mine) This doesn't seem like much of a confrontation to me, and at first Johnson kind of made it sound like he had him in a choke hold around the neck.
Off note, Johnson has been through a lot though. He said he was shot like 3 or 4 years ago, that does give some credence to the neighborhood he has lived in, but I can't remember if he had just moved to Ferguson or not. There might have been mention of that earlier in this thread. I'm not sure how much of it is hyperbole but after the gun shot he describes his physical\mental state as someone with PTSD. Hyperventilating, frozen with fear, etc.
Then after Brown has turned around, post-chase, Johnson also states:
p. 123Dorian Johnson said:
This is before the last 2 volley's, just after Brown has turned around. I am not sure when Wilson said he had his demon face on, but the two might line up.
Pretty tough to read though that's for sure, it gets rather confusing.
ETA
ages numbers and...p. 124Dorian Johnson said:
He seems really back and forth with his clarity.
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davefoc
Philosopher
1. I speculated based on the evidence I described. Some people have a tendency to believe that only evidence that supports their view counts as evidence. I assume that is not you but claiming that the evidence that doesn't support you view isn't evidence makes it seem like that is what you are doing.
2. I didn't demand anybody do anything. Some people have a strong opinion that Wilson acted appropriately throughout the incident and if they have evidence that supports that view I said I would attempt to read it with an open mind.
3. You haven't commented on the PhatomWolf's claims that the physical evidence proved that Brown was charging Wilson. Do you think PhantomWolf was right about that?
davefoc
Philosopher
There are two issues here:
1. Did Wilson act appropriately throughout
2. Did Brown commit serious transgressions that led to his death.
I think the answer to question 2 is clear. Brown did. If that is the only question to be considered about this situation then there shouldn't be much of a discussion. There would be of course because a lot of people have a vested interested in supporting their narrative of how the white power structure is stomping on blacks and fanning the flames with incidents like this is well used strategy.
I think the answer to the first question is important also and for the most part it is lost in the public debate between the Wilson-was-the- devil crowd and the Brown-was-a-thug-and-the-fact-that-he-was-killed-was-entirely-his-fault crowd.
If you change out Wilson for a different policeman on the day in question I think in the great majority of times Brown ends up alive.
Although, in thinking about this a bit more, I see that Wilson might have gone chasing after Brown without the intent to arrest him. Perhaps his idea was just to follow him to assist with an arrest when his backup arrived and it was only after Brown turned towards Wilson that Wilson was forced to defend himself. It very well could have been something that Wilson reasonably didn't anticipate.
plague311
Great minds think...
Chasing after an overweight teenager, with saggy pants and no shoes, and being surprised when he doesn't get away?
I don't think he was surprised he didn't get away at all. He was going after him to arrest him for the multiple laws that he broke, which is, you know, his job.
davefoc
Philosopher
Wilson's job didn't involve using his authority to impose rudeness on the citizens of Ferguson and it should have involved skills at interacting with people so as to defuse tense situations.
Here's a link to a story by somebody he interacted with before the incident in question:
http://crooksandliars.com/2014/08/woman-claims-darren-wilson-told-her-shut
This isn't the only story out there like this. I found this story when I went looking for the story I'd read previously. The Arman video provides strong evidence that Wilson was a cop with a chip on his shoulder. I don't think it is a coincidence that he was a Ferguson cop that ended up shooting somebody. The Arman video also proves that Wilson was willing to lie to cover up his antagonistic style.
Wilson's job was also to act in ways that reduced the chances that he would need to shoot somebody. If he did go charging after Brown with the intent to arrest him then that was very close to a decision to shoot Brown. There was a very good chance given what had gone on between the two men that Brown was not going to surrender peacefully. Wilson had already shot Brown, and Brown had beat on Wilson. Brown, reasonably enough might have assumed that Wilson would shoot him in that situation no matter what he did. But as I mentioned above, maybe Wilson just intended to follow Brown and wait for backup to help with an arrest. Assuming that was the case, I think Wilson's decision to chase Brown might have been reasonable. The problem that Wilson may not have anticipated was that Brown would turn around and come toward him.
But even if we give Wilson the benefit of the doubt that he did not anticipate that Brown would turn and come towards him and that Brown's actions after he turned represented enough of a threat to justify the first shots fired at Brown, I think it is very reasonable to ask why the second set of shots. Brown was significantly wounded by then and Wilson could have easily out run him or fended him off with a baton. The second round of shots looks either cowardly or crazed to me.
People have made a lot of claims about Wilson's clean record. What is the evidence for this? Apparently the city for much of Wilson's employment period had a policy of not keeping records of complaints against a policemen that didn't result in sanctions and Wilson came from a police department that was apparently so bad that it was disbanded entirely. How is it probative to claim that Wilson had a clean record when so much of his record was likely not publicly available?
Did the Arman video result in any sanctions against Wilson? If not what does the claim "clean record" refer to when it is obvious that significant problems that Wilson had weren't included in his record.
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plague311
Great minds think...
I disagree with the majority of your post. That story is complete crap, and contradicts itself. There is some sketchy evidence in there, 15 second video's, and you piecing it together on a lot of "what if's".
davefoc
Philosopher
Aren't you doing the same thing? We know Brown committed a strong arm robbery and assaulted Wilson. Therefore we can conclude that Wilson acted properly?
Mike!
Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Re
It doesn't require anywhere near the level of pure speculation to reach that conclusion as it does to reach yours.
plague311
Great minds think...
No, there is a large difference between assuming that Wilson was acting poorly based on a 15 second video with no context, and some individual who can't even get a story to make sense.
And saying there is no evidence available that says he did act incorrectly in the Brown encounter.
davefoc
Philosopher
That 15 second video was not the only evidence that Wilson had acted like that previously. I posted a link to a woman who described a similar encounter above.
The 15 second video also provided evidence that Wilson was willing to lie to cover up the rude way he interfaced with people. Something I think he probably did again with regard to the initial encounter between himself, Johnson and Brown.
This is probably the last I'm going to say about this for awhile. I think I'm just repeating myself and I think we have reached the point we need to agree to disagree. But we do agree on several important issues.
1. I don't think Wilson should have been indicted. If he had been indicted in a shorter more prosecutor friendly grand jury, I think he would have been found not guilty in a fair trial.
2. I don't know exactly what happened and perhaps your view is correct.
3. Brown's actions were unequivocally bad and his bad actions would have put him at significant risk no matter where he chose to do them and not only from the police.
4. The police are human and that means that they are not immune to fear and panic like the rest of us and holding police responsible for being human is obviously problematic.
I disagree in that I think Wilson's antagonistic actions were probably an essential element of the incidents that led to the death of Brown. And even if this can't be proven and I don't think it can I think there is enough evidence here to suggest that Ferguson needs to look seriously at new procedures and new training to make this kind of event less likely and to improve the relations of the police and the citizens in Ferguson.
Skeptic Tank
Trigger Warning
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The evidence that Wilson was some sort of overly aggressive, confrontational cop with an itchy trigger finger seems to be weak or non-existent but let's say for a second that that is true...
Let's say that he pulled up next to Brown and Johnson red-faced and inexplicably touchy about where they were walking, and outright screamed "get the eff up on the sidewalk!" full of aggression far beyond what the situation could possibly justify. Mind you, this doesn't even seem to be anywhere near what Johnson himself claims... but just for the sake of argument, Wilson's a loose cannon and super aggressive.
Next, let's grant that he aggressively and even a bit recklessly backs up his vehicle and pulls too close to Brown and Johnson, and just does the whole thing very confrontationally and aggressively.
So, now that we're at this juncture in our hypothetical situation for the sake of argument... what next?
He's still a police officer, he's still armed, he still has the weight of the law behind him and he's in a position of great power.
Any rational citizen when confronted with an officer like that, or any officer of any kind, will show respect and compliance. In fact, if you're dealing with an officer who seems to be in some sort of red-faced roid rage mode, your best bet is to be EXTRA compliant and give him no excuse to ramp up his physicality with you or try to hit you with a larger speeding ticket amount or come up with other traffic infractions or whatever the situation may be...
I'm reminded of that video of the cop who was completely over the top angry at some kid who was skateboarding where he wasn't supposed to. He was raging out on this like 14 year old kid. The kid was doing a slight amount of backtalk or just trying to not lose all toughness in the eyes of his friends and sort of quietly griping about the officer and what he was saying, and even that was just fueling the cop's rage toward him.
What that kid didn't do, and this is very good for him, was he didn't pick up his skateboard and swing it over the back of the cop's head.
See, no matter how inappropriately aggressive a cop is being... we as citizens don't gain the right to become aggressive toward them. Society cannot work in that way. We cannot give random, untrained citizens the right to determine whether a cop was being too aggressive, and make the determination that they felt they should attack the cop. Can't have that.
So I guess I just don't see how this hypothetical aggressiveness from Wilson would justify what Brown did. At all.
Let's say that he pulled up next to Brown and Johnson red-faced and inexplicably touchy about where they were walking, and outright screamed "get the eff up on the sidewalk!" full of aggression far beyond what the situation could possibly justify. Mind you, this doesn't even seem to be anywhere near what Johnson himself claims... but just for the sake of argument, Wilson's a loose cannon and super aggressive.
Next, let's grant that he aggressively and even a bit recklessly backs up his vehicle and pulls too close to Brown and Johnson, and just does the whole thing very confrontationally and aggressively.
So, now that we're at this juncture in our hypothetical situation for the sake of argument... what next?
He's still a police officer, he's still armed, he still has the weight of the law behind him and he's in a position of great power.
Any rational citizen when confronted with an officer like that, or any officer of any kind, will show respect and compliance. In fact, if you're dealing with an officer who seems to be in some sort of red-faced roid rage mode, your best bet is to be EXTRA compliant and give him no excuse to ramp up his physicality with you or try to hit you with a larger speeding ticket amount or come up with other traffic infractions or whatever the situation may be...
I'm reminded of that video of the cop who was completely over the top angry at some kid who was skateboarding where he wasn't supposed to. He was raging out on this like 14 year old kid. The kid was doing a slight amount of backtalk or just trying to not lose all toughness in the eyes of his friends and sort of quietly griping about the officer and what he was saying, and even that was just fueling the cop's rage toward him.
What that kid didn't do, and this is very good for him, was he didn't pick up his skateboard and swing it over the back of the cop's head.
See, no matter how inappropriately aggressive a cop is being... we as citizens don't gain the right to become aggressive toward them. Society cannot work in that way. We cannot give random, untrained citizens the right to determine whether a cop was being too aggressive, and make the determination that they felt they should attack the cop. Can't have that.
So I guess I just don't see how this hypothetical aggressiveness from Wilson would justify what Brown did. At all.
WildCat
NWO Master Conspirator
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Of course, they couldn't put it on the internet if it wasn't true.
TheL8Elvis
Philosopher
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I think that's part of the issue, certainly.
We heard many arguments from incredulity that Brown could not have possibly attacked wilson - he was unarmed, that would be suicide.
I agree that anyone in their right mind isn't going to keep coming at a op with his gun out, who has already shot at you.
Certainly seems plausible to me that Wilson assumed the mantle of his authority and having the ability to enforce would aide in arresting someone, and causing them to not (suicidally) attack you.
plague311
Great minds think...
The biggest problem I have with this story is it just doesn't make any sense.
So she couldn't see a damn thing, but she had no problem seeing his name tag? She never explains how she got maced in the first place. She's praying for vengeance, as good christians do. According to her, Wilson would not let her pour milk in her eyes, but allowed her to walk away and get in her car. The story is just one big mess of crap, and it makes no sense.
Even the other video Wilson doesn't start out the conversation with a lot of aggression. Is the lie we're referring to him telling the one about the dogs? Wilson is the worst ******* cop if after he arrests the guy he goes through the time and effort to make sure the guys stuff is properly put away so it wouldn't be stolen.
KatieG
Rootin' Tootin' Raspberry
Most of you wrote the story the way you wanted it to break down, and spend of a lot of time patting yourselves on the back.
Wilson had choices. Instead of backing up and being yahoo cowboy, he could have waited for backup, like most police officers would do. He could have kept Brown under surveillance. It's not like there were that many people the size of Brown in the area.
Nothing in his police training told him to back up, slam open his door, and start the confrontation that led to Brown's death. He's a yahoo cop and the city of Ferguson and the police force are better off without him.
Wilson had choices. Instead of backing up and being yahoo cowboy, he could have waited for backup, like most police officers would do. He could have kept Brown under surveillance. It's not like there were that many people the size of Brown in the area.
Nothing in his police training told him to back up, slam open his door, and start the confrontation that led to Brown's death. He's a yahoo cop and the city of Ferguson and the police force are better off without him.
plague311
Great minds think...
I always enjoy people apologizing for Brown's actions while accusing Wilson of misconduct, and claiming to know things that "most police officers would do" while providing no evidence to support that theory.- Status