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I'm most interested in a discussion. What I'm not interested in is brow beating.

I certainly hope you don't think asking you to tell me where you said something, after I looked for it, is browbeating. Or anything else I've posted in our discussion, for that matter.

You are most certainly entitled to an opinion. I have said that I accept that a reasonable person could find that the evidence comports with Wilson's testimony and tends to support his statement.

I have concerns about this case and I've made them clear.

  1. Poor relations and questions of racism between law enforcement and citizens before Michael Brown was slain.
  2. The Ferguson police chief admitted that the body was in the street too long.
  3. Even when the body was covered it was not properly covered leaving the feet and a pool of blood exposed. Eventually the police errected a barrier to shield Browns body. A bit late since his father had to see his son lying in the street.
  4. The way the robbery video was released, the bungling and sputtering of the chief when he did release it.
  5. The 35' statement.
  6. The reaction to citizen's protests.
Now, you can say that these are not truly inconsistent, that there is nothing in my list that warrants discussion and cause for concern. That's your prerogative. I disagree with you. You can either dismiss me as being unreasonable, agree that reasonable people can disagree or we can discuss the merits some more.

I'm not likely to suddenly say, oh yeah, the case is all wrapped up nice and tight with no room for disagreement or concern. I don't want to be accused of a straw man so, if there is something else that you want from me then tell me what it is.

Thanks for clarifying. You didn't make your concerns all that clear, IMO. (as an example, when you specifically talk about inconsistencies in the police report, I expect that you'll actually list them)

As for the things above, I agree that the police handled things imperfectly, and even poorly in some instances. But I don't think those things have much (if any) bearing on the shooting, and whether it was justified or not. So we can probably just agree to disagree on these issues.
 
Thanks for clarifying. You didn't make your concerns all that clear, IMO. (as an example, when you specifically talk about inconsistencies in the police report, I expect that you'll actually list them)

As for the things above, I agree that the police handled things imperfectly, and even poorly in some instances. But I don't think those things have much (if any) bearing on the shooting, and whether it was justified or not. So we can probably just agree to disagree on these issues.
Fair enough.
 
I just watched It's a Wonderful Life.

Clearly if you slug a cop, he has every right to shoot you.

Of course Clarence had something to do with the trajectory of the bullets.

I saw it in a movie.
 
I've been trying to figure out in a little more detail how the physical evidence supports Wilson.

I read PhanomWolf's post from several pages back where he says that the distance between the point that Brown turns and his body is 49 feet.

Is the 49 feet estimate based on the location of a blood stain?

What part of Brown's body is the estimate based on?

Is it valid to assume that Brown stopped cold after the final shot? Perhaps he fell a few feet in the direction of his motion?

Is it possible that the first blood stain was from the wound that Brown had sustained back at the car?

If I use 6.7 seconds for the total shot interval and assume that the blood stain is where the first shot hit Brown and I subtract a five feet from the 49 feet estimate to account for the fact that Brown might have fall forward.

44/6.7 = 6.5 feet per second
4.4 miles per hour
13.6 minutes per mile
This pace is either a very fast walk or a very slow run

or about 7 km/hour which is pretty close to PhantomWolf's estimate of 7.5 km/hour where he didn't account for any distance traveled by Brown's body after the last shot and he used a less precise estimate of the interval between the first and the last shot.

Oopps, I have to admit to being wrong, it was actually 49 feet between the point Brown turns and his body, assuming that the police drawing is correctly to scale.

Based on that Brown covered 49 feet in 7 seconds (the time it took the shots to occur)

That's 7 feet a second or just over 2m/s, about 7.5 km per hour. Not a sprint, but it's about the speed a 1,000m runner goes at, so way faster than a stumble or stagger. Although this also assumes that he didn't slow on being hit by the two shots to his body, he might have started out faster

I'd also point out that there was no reason that he would have been staggering anyways, a shot to the arm doesn't make a person stagger, and all three shots to the torso indicate that he was bend down towards the shooter so he didn't bend over and stagger from one of them unless it was towards the end of the charge.

I am not sure what to make of this. It still seems reasonable to have expected Wilson to retreat further after his first volley of shots. He reasonably might have presumed Brown was a human and not a Zombi and that the earlier wounds would begin to take effect quickly. But maybe he couldn't see the hits and didn't note any slowing by Brown?

I continue to think it is more likely that Brown is crashing to the ground while Wilson is firing off the last sequence of shots. Would it have been reasonable to expect Wilson to refrain from firing the last sequence of shots? Not reasonable enough to charge him with a crime if he didn't but reasonable enough to see this action as improper?

I have also been thinking about the initial encounter. I didn't realize that Johnson was not necessarily a willing participant in the robbery. I also didn't realize that his prior record for crime was small. Given this new information and the Arman video Johnson's testimony about Wilson's antagonistic approach seems more credible to me than previously.

This leads to the issue of why Wilson backed up the car to confront Brown and Johnson. Supposedly Wilson says in his GJ testimony that this was because he became aware that they were suspects in the robbery but this doesn't seem to be corroborated by what was said prior to the GJ and the time between when he confronted Brown and Johnson, when he made the call to request backup and when he backed up the car is very short. Is it probable that Wilson is lying about the justification for backing up the car aggressively to confront Brown and Johnson the second time?
 
I just watched It's a Wonderful Life.

Clearly if you slug a cop, he has every right to shoot you.

Of course Clarence had something to do with the trajectory of the bullets.

I saw it in a movie.

Plus, Potter always wins, and don't conservatives love it?
 
Earlier in this thread I said how unlikely it was for an officer to shoot someone with a pistol from 50 yards away. Well it turns out that the Austin cop who shot the nut who was on a shooting spree took him out with a pistol at a range of over 100 yards. And he did it one-handed because he was holding the reins of 2 horses while he took the shot! He's either incredibly good, incredibly lucky, or both.

Or, um, people who know enough to shoot one-handed are pretty good shots. I'm pretty good one-handed at 50 yards. I haven't tried on horseback or at 100 yards, but at 50 yards, I can pretty reliably hit a 10 cm diameter target.

I completely suck big fat hairy rocks two-handed, which all the smart shooting instructors tell me I should do. But then when they see what I can do with one hand sighting off the wrong eye, they generally have to shut up.
 
If I use 6.7 seconds for the total shot interval and assume that the blood stain is where the first shot hit Brown and I subtract a five feet from the 49 feet estimate to account for the fact that Brown might have fall forward.

44/6.7 = 6.5 feet per second
4.4 miles per hour
13.6 minutes per mile
This pace is either a very fast walk or a very slow run
You did not account for the pause between "charges".
 
Or, um, people who know enough to shoot one-handed are pretty good shots. I'm pretty good one-handed at 50 yards. I haven't tried on horseback or at 100 yards, but at 50 yards, I can pretty reliably hit a 10 cm diameter target.
With a service pistol (4" barrel, not a target model) under stress? At 100 yards the front sight would completely cover a man-sized target.
 
Or, um, people who know enough to shoot one-handed are pretty good shots. I'm pretty good one-handed at 50 yards. I haven't tried on horseback or at 100 yards, but at 50 yards, I can pretty reliably hit a 10 cm diameter target.

Big difference between practice and an actual gunfight (with all the rushing and adrenaline etc).
 
I have concerns about this case and I've made them clear.

  1. Poor relations and questions of racism between law enforcement and citizens before Michael Brown was slain.
  2. The Ferguson police chief admitted that the body was in the street too long.
  3. Even when the body was covered it was not properly covered leaving the feet and a pool of blood exposed. Eventually the police errected a barrier to shield Browns body. A bit late since his father had to see his son lying in the street.
  4. The way the robbery video was released, the bungling and sputtering of the chief when he did release it.
  5. The 35' statement.
  6. The reaction to citizen's protests.

That's good, and I quite agree. I might go a bit out on a limb and say that anything about Brown and Wilson and the Grand Jury really isn't central. (Surprise!)

I've already mentioned (well, somewhere anyway) that I probably would have voted to indict, because the purpose of a grand jury is to establish probable cause for an actual trial to happen. The purpose of a trial is to establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. I don't think that this could reasonably happen in a fair trial. Preponderance of evidence, maybe, in a civil suit, but not beyond a reasonable doubt.

Is there anybody who thinks otherwise? Really, beyond a reasonable doubt? If so, I'd like to hear it. If not, what really is the point in counting the leg hairs of a flea?

However, the fact that this particular incident resulted in an explosion, when there are quite a few far less ambiguous news stories floating around that didn't, I find that extremely interesting and probably indicative of a huge problem that would have manifested somehow even if neither Wilson nor Brown had ever been born. The names and faces would be different, and maybe the location would be different, but it would have come to a head.

Is there anyone who wants to discuss that? Because, really, a lot of the logic and rhetoric here seems pretty limited. People go so far as they absolutely need to in order to score a point for some "side" or another and then stop. Insight into how and why this sort of crap happens, a half century after the Watts riots, and the possibility that it might be nice if they could be prevented and changes made before another few centuries have passed seem elusive. I hope they are not definitively beyond the scope of this discussion. If they are, well, have a nice life, humans.
 
I've been trying to figure out in a little more detail how the physical evidence supports Wilson.

I read PhanomWolf's post from several pages back where he says that the distance between the point that Brown turns and his body is 49 feet.

Is the 49 feet estimate based on the location of a blood stain?

What part of Brown's body is the estimate based on?

Is it valid to assume that Brown stopped cold after the final shot? Perhaps he fell a few feet in the direction of his motion?

Is it possible that the first blood stain was from the wound that Brown had sustained back at the car?
If I use 6.7 seconds for the total shot interval and assume that the blood stain is where the first shot hit Brown and I subtract a five feet from the 49 feet estimate to account for the fact that Brown might have fall forward.

<snip>

The farthest blood stain is from the wound to his hand. It wouldn't be gushing blood, but it would be bleeding pretty good, and likely throbbing too, but not really painful.
I had a firecracker go off in my hand when I was a kid, it didn't tear anything up, but it felt like my hand was walloped with a brick and I'd guess Michael Brown's hand felt similar after the gunshot.
 
I've already mentioned (well, somewhere anyway) that I probably would have voted to indict, because the purpose of a grand jury is to establish probable cause for an actual trial to happen.
No, it is not! The purpose of the grand jury is to determine that a crime has been committed by a preponderance of the evidence.
 
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The farthest blood stain is from the wound to his hand. It wouldn't be gushing blood, but it would be bleeding pretty good, and likely throbbing too, but not really painful.
I had a firecracker go off in my hand when I was a kid, it didn't tear anything up, but it felt like my hand was walloped with a brick and I'd guess Michael Brown's hand felt similar after the gunshot.

If there a blood stain that can be tied for sure to a shot? Is the location of that blood stain the one that PhantomWolf used in his calculations?
 
If there a blood stain that can be tied for sure to a shot? Is the location of that blood stain the one that PhantomWolf used in his calculations?
The blood stain cannot be tied to any particular shot or wound, however it does establish a minimum distance that Brown came back towards Wilson.
 
The blood stain cannot be tied to any particular shot or wound, however it does establish a minimum distance that Brown came back towards Wilson.

I realize now that my understanding of the arguments associated with the speed that Brown came forward are faulty.

If the blood stains were from the hand wound then can we know nothing about the speed of Brown from them?

We can know that Brown moved towards Wilson, which suggests that he wasn't complying with an order to get down on the ground assuming that such an order was given.

Where does the 49 feet estimate come from? Wikipedia and other sources say the stains were 22 feet from Brown's body. PhantomWolf seems to have determined the location that Brown turned and walked towards Wilson at and where Brown was first shot after he had fled. How did he do that?

As to the intervals of the shot sounds somebody made a nice table and posted a chart of the sound recording in this thread or the previous one. I couldn't find it easily and that information is surprisingly difficult to find on the web. I was considering loading the file into Audacity and doing the timing for myself, but it seems easier right now to see if somebody couldn't link to the post with that information. 6.7 seconds is the time interval listed in several places on the web and I thought that was the interval between the first shot and the last shot. Is that not right?
 
I had no problem running aggressively with loose pants and no shoes when I was his age. Where are you getting this stuff?

Ranb

Maybe you had Sagz Jeans so you didn't have to hike them up to run?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Di-o2aAG2Uk#t=13

Try "running aggressively" with your pants like this:

uIPfUYL.jpg
 
No, it is not! The purpose of the grand jury is to determine that a crime has been committed by a preponderance of the evidence.
No that's wildly incorrect, but rather than taking my word for it, why don't you just provide evidence that your statement is correct?
 
No that's wildly incorrect, but rather than taking my word for it, why don't you just provide evidence that your statement is correct?
This is directly from the Missouri Constitution:
Section 16. Grand juries—composition—jurisdiction to convene—powers.—
That a grand jury shall consist of twelve citizens, any nine of whom concurring may find an indictment or a true bill: Provided, that no grand jury shall be convened except upon an order of a judge of a court having the power to try and determine felonies; but when so assembled such grand jury shall have power to investigate and return indictments for all character and grades of crime; and that the power of grand juries to inquire into the willful misconduct in office of public officers, and to find indictments in connection therewith, shall never be suspended.
How does that jibe with "the purpose of a grand jury is to establish probable cause for an actual trial to happen"? Epepke's definition implies the role of a grand jury is to find reasons to indict, when in reality they are empowered to investigate and return indictments only if they feel they are warranted.
 
This is directly from the Missouri Constitution:

How does that jibe with "the purpose of a grand jury is to establish probable cause for an actual trial to happen"? Epepke's definition implies the role of a grand jury is to find reasons to indict, when in reality they are empowered to investigate and return indictments only if they feel they are warranted.
The grand jury just decides whether there is probable cause to bring charges and half the states don't even use them anymore. Further, a prosecutor can bring charges regardless of whether the grand jury does not think it's merited.

However, I think I understand what you're trying to say; you just need to be less sloppy in your language when it comes to legal issues.

Oh, and one state constitution isn't evidence in this case.
 
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