Michael Brown shooting II

[davefoc]

As usual, a comprehensive and well thought out post (even if I don't agree with all of it.)

Thank you

 

[RandFan]

At this time he had at most 2 shots to the arm. So what made him fall down?

Loss of blood. Trauma from being shot.

 

[PhantomWolf]

No. They don't even have to be informed about their case being brought before a grand jury.

Have a law that says that they can't turn if they wish to?

And why do you think they don't appear? Because a prosecutor will have a field day with them because their defence lawyer can't be there. But bad cops are so special the prosecutor will be their defence lawyer for them. Douchebaggery at its finest.

Most won't bother because they don't want the prosecution knowing their strategy if they have to defend themselves in court. Testifying before the Grand Jury is foe arming the prosecution, and it means that they have to stick to the same defence in trial, generally a bad idea unless you're telling the truth.

BTW, what's your comment about the whole "Wilson lied about knowing about the robbery" now that the released dispatcher radio logs prove not only that he asked if they needed help, but that he logged a call to say that he had who he believed were the two suspects and required backup? Do you still believe the Sergeant over the physical evidence?

 

[RandFan]

¹That's both debatable and there isn't much in the way of evidence that he acted inappropriately.

²That's incorrect based on my readings of the evidence. The only shot that might be consistent with his arm being raised is precluded from that on account of being the one with residue suggesting it was the only one at extremely close range (the hit in the car).

³And how does that support the incident itself being an example of police abuse of power or even 'us vs them' thinking?

1. There is much to cause me to think he did. Obviously you discount everything I've said so there's no more I can do.
2. I provided the video of forensic pathologist Cyril Wecht who disagrees with you.
3. Be honest with me, is there anything I could say and do that would have any bearing on your perspective? From where I'm sitting it seems you have your fingers in your ears and you are humming loudly. I can't make you consider the arguments I've made.

 

[WildCat]

And the "demonic" look.

Turn a kid into an animal and a GJ will let you shot him to death. Tried and true.

Well, that and the overwhelming evidence in Wilson's favor.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

1. There is much to cause me to think he did. Obviously you discount everything I've said so there's no more I can do.
2. I provided the video of forensic pathologist Cyril Wecht who disagrees with you.
3. Be honest with me, is there anything I could say and do that would have any bearing on your perspective? From where I'm sitting it seems you have your fingers in your ears and you are humming loudly. I can't make you consider the arguments I've made.

Why do you keep relying on him, instead of the pathologists who actually examined the body ?

Also, I have yet to see that list of things you find inconsistent.

Presumably Mike has helped clear up any confusion with the final shots and the top of the head.

What else did you find inconsistent ?

 

[WildCat]

That's what Wilson claimed but there was no mention of the robbery, or robbery suspect, on the police radio when they called for help from St. Louis police. No mention. What there was mention of was an incident where someone walking on the street was shot by a Ferguson cop.

In actual fact, they didn't find out about the robbery until after the shooting when Brown's friend Johnson told them about it. At that time they went to the store to view the CC video and then subpoenaed the video.

Where are you getting these "facts"? I hope it's not from that KU student whose page you linked to earlier. Because, frankly, she's nuts.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Loss of blood. Trauma from being shot.

There isn't that much blood about the scene for him to be passing out from loss of blood, and he happily ran 170 odd feet without showing any effect from the trauma. That he was drugged up and likely on an adrenalin high, being shot in the arm would not be a debilitating injury.

 

[tyr_13]

[*]There is much to cause me to think he did. Obviously you discount everything I've said so there's no more I can do.

I disagree with many of your points, I do not discount everything you've said.

[*]I provided the video of forensic pathologist Cyril Wecht who disagrees with you.

And his peers disagree with him, and they get the deceased height correct.

[*]Be honest with me, is there anything I could say and do that would have any bearing on your perspective? From where I'm sitting it seems you have your fingers in your ears and you are humming loudly. I can't make you consider the arguments I've made.

You could present evidence I had not seen, or reasoning I have not considered. That I disagree with you is not evidence I have not considered your arguments.

The fingers in the ear thing is applying the other way as well. Not just for you, but for many. I find validity in many of the criticisms of the Ferguson and city PD, in the criticisms of many police in the US, of the way black people are treated, in many of the priorities and tactics of police and politicians. I even find some validity in some of the criticisms of Wilson and his actions that day. That doesn't mean I have to agree that there should have been a trial, that Wilson is a racist, that there is evidence the shooting was unjustified, or many of the other things people who usually flog the evidence are flogging the table over. In fact I see it working the other way too. Somehow some are behaving as if the lack of a clear cut racist cop murdering a black guy in the street here sheds doubt onto the way black people are treated by police or other police power abuses.

It's one of those times where it seems everyone gets to be right and wrong at the same time.

Well, besides davefoc.

 

[RandFan]

¹Why do you keep relying on him, instead of the pathologists who actually examined the body ?

²Also, I have yet to see that list of things you find inconsistent.

³Presumably Mike has helped clear up any confusion with the final shots and the top of the head.

What else did you find inconsistent ?

1. An argument is either valid or it isn't. Wecht makes a very compelling argument.
2. Do you even bother to read my posts? How many times must I explain why this case bothers me? If you find my language or terms objectionable then that's fine. My concerns are the same as Dave's.
3. He didn't resolve why Brown was shot in the top of the head.
4. I don't know why Wilson pursued Brown. I don't know why Brown would flee Wilson and then turn and charge Wilson. That doesn't make any sense.

 

[RandFan]

The fingers in the ear thing is applying the other way as well. Not just for you, but for many.

I'm not making claims that Wilson executed Brown. I'm not pretending to know what happened. I don't have my fingers in my ears.

 

[WildCat]

I did not see your post. I sincerely apologize. However, I provided the video of Cyril Wecht. Brown could have only been shot in the top of the head with the bullet exiting out of his chin if he were falling. His wounds are consistent with someone who was shot while incapacitated.

I thought it was the bullet that went in Brown's eye that exited the chin, probably because it was deflected by bone?

 

[PhantomWolf]

I thought it was the bullet that went in Brown's eye that exited the chin, probably because it was deflected by bone?

According to the reports I have read, Brown's torso would have needed to be at about parallel to the ground with head in line with it.

The trouble with the falling theory is that there are three shots likely about 1.5 seconds apart, all with virtually identical tracks (The final bullet was slightly further off which might even mean we're looking at bullets 1, 2, and 4 of the four round volley, though I find it less likely.) Basically Wilson and Brown has to be in virtually the same relative positions over the 2 second period for this to have happened. If Wilson was moving backwards and Brown stationary and falling, the tracks would be quite different to each other.

 

[Cylinder]

I thought it was the bullet that went in Brown's eye that exited the chin, probably because it was deflected by bone?

Wound 2 -- which was the forehead injury -- exited the chin. Wound 1 -- the injury to the scalp -- came to rest near the right chin.

# 1. There is a gunshot entrance wound of the vertex of the scalp. This wound is located 20.0 cm above the level of the right external auditory meatus and near midline of the vertex of the head. The hole measures 10 mm x 8 mm. It is round with level edges. The edges focally show an abrasion ring measuring up to 1 mm in greatest dimension and is most prominent near the superior edge of the wound. No powder stipple is identified. No soot is identified. The wound track shows deeper hemorrhage. A bullet, seen on x-rays, is found within the soft tissue of the right face and is recovered and submitted as evidence. There is internal beveling of the defect in the parietal bone of the skull. Evaluation of this wound indicates that it is an entrance wound. The path of this shot is downward and rightward. The track of this bullet has been traced to pass via the scalp, soft tissue, parietal bone of the skull, right parietal lobe of the brain, right temporal lobe of the brain, right temporal bone of the skull to rest within the soft tissue of the lateral right face. Passage of the bullet through the head created fractures of the calvarial and basilar bones of the skull. Pneumocephalus is present (confirmed on post-mortem x-ray examination). Subdural and subarachnoid hemorrhage is present on the convexities of the brain. There are small, punctate contusions present within the white matter of the brain near the path of the gunshot injury. The gunshot injury path, through the brain, is approximately I2 cm in length.

# 2. There is a gunshot entrance wound of the central forehead. This wound is located 7.0 cm above the level of the right external auditory meatus and 2.0 cm right of the anterior midline of the head. The hole measures I5 mm x 10 mm. It is oval with slightly inverted edges. The edges show an abrasion ring measuring up to 3 mm in greatest dimension and is most prominent near the superior edge of the wound. No powder stipple is identified. No soot is identified. The wound track shows deeper hemorrhage. X-rays show small bullet fragments associated with this wound however due to their small size they are not recovered as evidence. This wound pairs with the wound of the right jaw described immediately below which is an exit wound. The path of the shot is downward, slightly backward and rightward. The track of this bullet has been traced to pass via the skin, soft tissue, right eye, inferior right orbital bone, soft tissue of the face to exit the skin of‘ the right jaw. Passage of the bullet through the head/face created fractures of the facial bones. There are irregular, gunshot related defects associated with the passage of the bullet through the head/face that are present near the right eyelid and right eyebrow. The dimensions of' these gunshot related defects have already been described above.

#3. There is a gunshot exit wound of the right jaw. This wound is located 5.5 cm below the level of the right external auditory meatus 1 1.0 cm right of the anterior midline of the head. The hole measures 15 min x 9 mm. It is irregular with clean edges. Evaluation of this wound indicates that it is an exit wound. This wound pairs with the wound of the central forehead described immediately above which is an entrance wound.​

 

[WildCat]

Officers can and do try to save the lives of armed citizens who are a known threat.

Your video is of cops shooting a man?

 

[qayak]

Looks like there is a breaking of the ranks:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/03/us/ferguson-nfl-st-louis-rams-black-police/

"We think that their [Rams players] actions were commendable and that they should not be ridiculed, disciplined or punished for taking a stand on this very important issue which is of great concern around the world and especially in the community where these players work," the Ethical Society of Police of St. Louis said in a statement this week.

The group has about 220 members from the city's police force in its ranks, the society's general counsel, Gloria McCollum, told CNN Wednesday. It describes itself as "the primary voice of African-American police officers in St. Louis city."

Interestingly, the St. Louis Police Officers Association which condemned the players earlier this week has no black officers on its governing board although it has about 2000 members with 30% being black.

No problems there folks.

 

[RandFan]

Your video is of cops shooting a man?

Did you note how many times they shot him? They shot him once. They did not fire a fusillade because they didn't want to kill him just resolve the situation. Please note that Brown was shot twice in the head. His wounds were consistent with being shot while falling. Do you still fail to see the difference?

 

[qayak]

Wound 2 -- which was the forehead injury -- exited the chin. Wound 1 -- the injury to the scalp -- came to rest near the right chin.

# 1. There is a gunshot entrance wound of the vertex of the scalp. This wound is located 20.0 cm above the level of the right external auditory meatus and near midline of the vertex of the head. The hole measures 10 mm x 8 mm. It is round with level edges. The edges focally show an abrasion ring measuring up to 1 mm in greatest dimension and is most prominent near the superior edge of the wound. No powder stipple is identified. No soot is identified. The wound track shows deeper hemorrhage. A bullet, seen on x-rays, is found within the soft tissue of the right face and is recovered and submitted as evidence. There is internal beveling of the defect in the parietal bone of the skull. Evaluation of this wound indicates that it is an entrance wound. The path of this shot is downward and rightward. The track of this bullet has been traced to pass via the scalp, soft tissue, parietal bone of the skull, right parietal lobe of the brain, right temporal lobe of the brain, right temporal bone of the skull to rest within the soft tissue of the lateral right face. Passage of the bullet through the head created fractures of the calvarial and basilar bones of the skull. Pneumocephalus is present (confirmed on post-mortem x-ray examination). Subdural and subarachnoid hemorrhage is present on the convexities of the brain. There are small, punctate contusions present within the white matter of the brain near the path of the gunshot injury. The gunshot injury path, through the brain, is approximately I2 cm in length.

# 2. There is a gunshot entrance wound of the central forehead. This wound is located 7.0 cm above the level of the right external auditory meatus and 2.0 cm right of the anterior midline of the head. The hole measures I5 mm x 10 mm. It is oval with slightly inverted edges. The edges show an abrasion ring measuring up to 3 mm in greatest dimension and is most prominent near the superior edge of the wound. No powder stipple is identified. No soot is identified. The wound track shows deeper hemorrhage. X-rays show small bullet fragments associated with this wound however due to their small size they are not recovered as evidence. This wound pairs with the wound of the right jaw described immediately below which is an exit wound. The path of the shot is downward, slightly backward and rightward. The track of this bullet has been traced to pass via the skin, soft tissue, right eye, inferior right orbital bone, soft tissue of the face to exit the skin of‘ the right jaw. Passage of the bullet through the head/face created fractures of the facial bones. There are irregular, gunshot related defects associated with the passage of the bullet through the head/face that are present near the right eyelid and right eyebrow. The dimensions of' these gunshot related defects have already been described above.

#3. There is a gunshot exit wound of the right jaw. This wound is located 5.5 cm below the level of the right external auditory meatus 1 1.0 cm right of the anterior midline of the head. The hole measures 15 min x 9 mm. It is irregular with clean edges. Evaluation of this wound indicates that it is an exit wound. This wound pairs with the wound of the central forehead described immediately above which is an entrance wound.​

You have an upward trajectory of the shots in the forearms on a 6'4" barefooted man being shot by a 6' tall man in police issue shoes. The only way you get that is if the arms are raised.

You have two shots to the chest with a downward trajectory. The only way you get that is if he is falling or dropping to the ground.

As he continues to fall, or drop, he is shot in the head.

A 292 pound man running towards the cop would have massive abrasions on his face and body from the fall. Brown didn't.

 

[KatieG]

There isn't that much blood about the scene for him to be passing out from loss of blood, and he happily ran 170 odd feet without showing any effect from the trauma. That he was drugged up and likely on an adrenalin high, being shot in the arm would not be a debilitating injury.[/QUOTE]

Evidence for that statement?

 

[RandFan]

According to the reports I have read, Brown's torso would have needed to be at about parallel to the ground with head in line with it.

The trouble with the falling theory is that there are three shots likely about 1.5 seconds apart, all with virtually identical tracks (The final bullet was slightly further off which might even mean we're looking at bullets 1, 2, and 4 of the four round volley, though I find it less likely.) Basically Wilson and Brown has to be in virtually the same relative positions over the 2 second period for this to have happened. If Wilson was moving backwards and Brown stationary and falling, the tracks would be quite different to each other.

A.) Where do you get the time between shots? B.) How do you explain the wounds?