Status
Not open for further replies.
Funny. Your opinion is again wrong.

Well when I see evidence of you condemning police for shooting guys with hose ends and 13 year old white kids with AK-47 lookalikes, etc, then I might re-evaluate. Haven't seen it yet though.
 
I simply don't get your point. Are you saying I'm only concerned about black victims of police stupidity? Really?

Most people here would have probably never heard of Michael Brown, were it not for the police overreacting wildly to neighborhood anger and minor protests. Without that, this entire case would have been a blip. But since they decided to attack news reporters, and point sniper rifles at random people in broad daylight, it turned into a major national cause.
 
Not quite, Ziggurat. Self defense is an affirmative defense. At trial, the burden is on the defendant to prove self defense. (generally by a preponderance of evidence). From my experience (see my prior posts) a self defense issue raised by the defendant is rarely a hurdle to finding probably cause at the GJ level.

Unless you work in Ohio or certain parts of Louisiana, you're wrong about this. Link.
 
BTW, what's it say to you, when someone is bent over, and the last shot is at the top of the head the ultimately put a someone down? Surely, after getting shot the first 5 times, bending over from those shots, the 6th shot was completely unnecessary? It was an execution. Period.

Or it just means that it all happened very fast. Wilson keeps shooting as Brown falls forward and a bullet strikes Brown's head. It's not as if Wilson fired a shot, then stopped to think for a moment, then fired another shot and stopped to think, etc. Once cops start shooting, they tend to keep shooting.

Steve S
 
Where is probable cause mentioned in the 5th Amendment? Have you read the 5th Amendment yet? It's not very long.

It's the standard of proof, that is what we are talking about here. All the 5th amendment does is declare the right to a grand jury. Im not sure why you keep bringing it up.

Because injustices exist elsewhere it should have been done in this case? What is the interest of society in that, and how does that serve the interests of justice?

Who said it was unjust? The burden in a GJ is low, capiche?


What's debatable about the forensics? The forensics helps identify which witness testimony is suspect, as well as other things like the witness who swore that there was another officer in the car with Wilson, did you find that credible? The GJ didn't.

What, you've never seen expert witnesses debate forensics? You know, at trial, which is public and where witnesses can be heavily cross-examined.


The distance was a few inches (the car) to 20 feet or less. The physical evidence confirms that part.

According to you it does. I think it a trial would have been a good way to determine those facts.


And there is a witness who said there was another cop in the car with Wilson. When there is conflicting witness testimony, and there almost always is, you have to look at which ones most closely match the physical evidence. Does the witness testimony that says he was shot while surrendering match the physical evidence?

I don't know, why not let a jury decide? Again, you seem to be drawing your conclusions based on snippets of the GJ testimony, which some have argued was tailored by the prosecutor to be heavily in favor of Wilson.


You cannot charge in this case unless a Grand Jury indicts (that 5th Amendment you're unfamiliar with), and the GJ did not indict based upon the evidence presented to them.

Your ignorant sarcasm doesn't help your argument any. I've never said that it shouldn't have gone to a GJ--where you got that idea I haven't a clue. What I have said is that the burden of proof in a GJ is very low, which is why a return of no-bill is extremely rare. Whether that is a good thing or not is irrelevant, it is what it is. The first mistake here was not appointing a special prosecutor, but that is just the first mistake...

What witness testimony favoring indicting Wilson did you find credible and why?

It isn't my job to determine who is credible here--that is a jury's function. And that credibility would be best determined in a full trial where lawyers could cross-examine the heck out of the witnesses--it just is not usual or fair for that level of inquiry to occur at the GJ stage. Anyone who has any experience with the criminal justice system knows that.
But It is quite clear that many of the witnesses gave testimony that Brown was shot while fleeing, shot while putting his hands up, shot while down etc--you've seen the chart posted here. From my reading of the various witness statements, there is more that supports a finding of probable cause than that favors letting Wilson walk. Whether they are credible or not should have been determined at trial. There was enough to meet the initial burden, and that is what you seem to be missing, mainly because of your unfamiliarity with our justice system. I could just as easily ask you if you think Wilson's testimony is plausible. Personally, the only way I think I could believe Wilson's story is if Brown were committing suicide--and I haven't seen any stories about him being suicidal.
 
Last edited:
It isn't my job to determine who is credible here--that is a jury's function. And that credibility would be best determined in a full trial where lawyers could cross-examine the heck out of the witnesses--it just is not usual or fair for that level of inquiry to occur at the GJ stage. Anyone who has any experience with the criminal justice system knows that.

So criminal complaints go directly to trial? Is that what is being asserted here?

None of the bits that evidenced probable cause withstood even preliminary scrutiny. At the point of that realization, the prosecutor is bound by rule not to prosecute. Full stop.

The prosecutor does have access, however to the time-honored, statutory and constitutionally-protected mechanism to make inquires into police misconduct and any charge or manner of crime.

Rule of law >> Rule of Canfield Green Apartments
 
Citing security concerns, Darren Wilson resigns from Ferguson police force

"I, Darren Wilson, hereby resign my commission as a police officer with the City of Ferguson effective immediately. I have been told that my continued employment may put the residents and police officers of the City of Ferguson at risk, which is a circumstance that I cannot allow.

"For obvious reasons, I wanted to wait until the grand jury made their decision before I officially made my decision to resign. It was my hope to continue in police work, but the safety of other police officers and the community are of paramount importance to me. It is my hope that my resignation will allow the community to heal. I would like to thank all of my supporters and fellow officers throughout this process.
 
The witnesses that agreed with the physical evidence, see my above ETA



The only way that the three bullets that hit Brown's chest and head could have hit his chest and head was if Wilson was directly above him, or if he was as witnesses claimed, charging head down like a footballer.

Sorry. This thread was TL;DR. Probably shouldn't jump into a thread this late like this.

But what I do not buy, is that he was charging him like a football player. For one, a person doesn't just charge another person head down like that. Not even in football. Only time one puts their head down like that, is if they are really close to someone and two seconds away from uprooting them if playing defense on a football team, or if you are the one with the ball and need to make it through.

Michael Brown was shot several times before being shot in the head. Someone who has been shot in the arm, is likely to bend over their arm. He was then shot in the chest, downward-facing, through the face, and through the top of the head at the end.

There is also the fact that the prosecutor gave the GJ a bad law to look over, failed to answer a few simple questions, and there is also this:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...the-michael-brown-case-supported-the-officer/

IMO, (and it is just my opinion!) I am not at all convinced that this "investigation" is completely accurate. I also notice that Michael Brown's size keeps getting larger and larger. It went from 6'2, 250 lbs, to 6'4, 280, to 6'6, 300. He seems to grow two inches every week, and gains 20 - 30 lbs too. And as large as this kid is, the puffiness on Wilson's face seems quite....minor.

It would appear that you haven't read the transcript either.

It would appear, you are correct. I got the "laymen's terms" of the evidence. ;)

Or it just means that it all happened very fast. Wilson keeps shooting as Brown falls forward and a bullet strikes Brown's head. It's not as if Wilson fired a shot, then stopped to think for a moment, then fired another shot and stopped to think, etc. Once cops start shooting, they tend to keep shooting.

Steve S

True.
 
Last edited:
So criminal complaints go directly to trial? Is that what is being asserted here?

No, and you apparently know that is not my assertion, as evidenced by your next statement:

None of the bits that evidenced probable cause withstood even preliminary scrutiny. At the point of that realization, the prosecutor is bound by rule not to prosecute. Full stop...

Well, apparently they didn't to this grand jury given the presentation that was given them. Have you read the witnesses statements? There were plenty of inconsistencies for sure, but also at least a half dozen witnesses who if they had even a smidgen of credibility gave evidence that was more than enough to indict. You apparently are convinced they were all liars. I would have preferred a jury trial to make that determination.
 
Last edited:
But what I do not buy, is that he was charging him like a football player. For one, a person doesn't just charge another person head down like that. Not even in football. Only time one puts their head down like that, is if they are really close to someone and two seconds away from uprooting them if playing defense on a football team, or if you are the one with the ball and need to make it through.

Michael Brown was shot several times before being shot in the head. Someone who has been shot in the arm, is likely to bend over their arm. He was then shot in the chest, downward-facing, through the face, and through the top of the head at the end...

Yep, the whole charging thing makes very little sense. From what I've seen, the most reasonable explanation was that Brown was in shock from being shot, and the succeeding and (fatal) shots occurred as he staggered forward. Staggering forward is easier to do than back-pedaling; and if you've been shot you probably arent gonna turn back around to try to out run successive shots. It is unfortunate he didnt immediately hit the pavement, but again this all happened rather quickly!
 
The thing that amazes me is this. People wanted a jury to see it, they got a jury to see it, a jury that didn't have a defence lawyer hitting them with all the things that cause reasonable doubt, cross examining the witnesses and generally blasting holes in the case. A jury who didn't have to find for guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, but rather that there was on the balance or probably reason to proceed to trial.

So they had a jury who had a lower standard of evidence and no defence at all.

If that jury couldn't say there was a case, how the heck could a trial jury find guilt?



Even if it didn't matter at all in this case, there should still be entirely separate prosecutors for when the suspect is a police officer.

Prosecutors work closely with the police on a daily basis.
 
It's the standard of proof, that is what we are talking about here. All the 5th amendment does is declare the right to a grand jury. Im not sure why you keep bringing it up.



Who said it was unjust? The burden in a GJ is low, capiche?




What, you've never seen expert witnesses debate forensics? You know, at trial, which is public and where witnesses can be heavily cross-examined.




According to you it does. I think it a trial would have been a good way to determine those facts.




I don't know, why not let a jury decide? Again, you seem to be drawing your conclusions based on snippets of the GJ testimony, which some have argued was tailored by the prosecutor to be heavily in favor of Wilson.




Your ignorant sarcasm doesn't help your argument any. I've never said that it shouldn't have gone to a GJ--where you got that idea I haven't a clue. What I have said is that the burden of proof in a GJ is very low, which is why a return of no-bill is extremely rare. Whether that is a good thing or not is irrelevant, it is what it is. The first mistake here was not appointing a special prosecutor, but that is just the first mistake...



It isn't my job to determine who is credible here--that is a jury's function. And that credibility would be best determined in a full trial where lawyers could cross-examine the heck out of the witnesses--it just is not usual or fair for that level of inquiry to occur at the GJ stage. Anyone who has any experience with the criminal justice system knows that.
But It is quite clear that many of the witnesses gave testimony that Brown was shot while fleeing, shot while putting his hands up, shot while down etc--you've seen the chart posted here. From my reading of the various witness statements, there is more that supports a finding of probable cause than that favors letting Wilson walk. Whether they are credible or not should have been determined at trial. There was enough to meet the initial burden, and that is what you seem to be missing, mainly because of your unfamiliarity with our justice system. I could just as easily ask you if you think Wilson's testimony is plausible. Personally, the only way I think I could believe Wilson's story is if Brown were committing suicide--and I haven't seen any stories about him being suicidal.

I suggest you actually read both the witness statements to detectives plus their grand jury testimony. None of the witnesses who claimed that he was shot while fleeing and/or put his hands up in surrender gave any credible testimony. Their claims were inconsistent and contradicted by forensics. That chart you mention doesn't list which witnesses made claims that were refuted by the physical evidence and which contradicted their prior claims when they testified before the grand jury. There was a no bill for a reason -- their testimony was that BAD.

What makes Wilson's story plausible is the forensic evidence at the crime scene which supports virtually EVERY key part of his testimony (the assault and struggle at the SUV, and Brown coming at least 20 feet back toward Wilson after he assaulted him). A legion of lying "witnesses" with racial and anti-cop agendas doesn't trump that. As for Brown doing something suicidal, I can easily reverse that on you -- why would Wilson execute a man who was surrendering with his hands up in front of a dozen witnesses in broad daylight? Two volleys of shots at a man who has his hands up in surrender? Makes no sense. That's career suicide.

Based on the agreed facts, who was more likely to commit "suicide" here -- Brown, very high on dope, who had just robbed convenience store minutes before his confrontation with Wilson (even Dorian Johnson was shocked by Brown's actions, telling the grand jury that he put back the cigars because he knew how wreckless it was to steal something when store security tapes could easily identify you) and then assaulting a cop in his car and trying to wrestle his weapon away, or Wilson, who has no history of police brutality or any criminality whatsoever?
 
Last edited:
Even if it didn't matter at all in this case, there should still be entirely separate prosecutors for when the suspect is a police officer.

Prosecutors work closely with the police on a daily basis.

Exactly why I am so suspicious of this. That, and CNN really seems to be tearing into Parcells. CNN did make a good point about that: Prosecutors are reluctant to go after Parcells, because they have successfully prosecuted people in the past that relied on Parcells in the past.

I am really sitting on the fence about this entire thing. More importantly, the protesters have more than enough right to be ANGRY. Not just because an 18 year old kid was shot and killed, but because of the way in the Ferguson PD handled the first protest with tanks and crap, and because of the bad history reaching back decades. And not just in Ferguson. In cities all across America. Hell, as a white person from the boonies of PA, I have witnessed police racism directly while attending school. I had friends who were black. Pulled over on three separate occassions with them in my car. The police asked for THEIR IDs. Not mine! The third time I was pulled over, I was PISSED. I told the officer, in no uncertain terms: "I am the one driving! Do you see any of those BLACK people behind the wheel? NO! Now, here's MY ID. Focus on ME."

One officer blathered on about how "one of the guys in your car looks like a suspect." I told him not to play that game. I am recording this conversation, and WILL go to the media. Now, unless you have a search warrant, you are wasting my time, and I am now leaving. (I wasn't recording, but they let me go.)

Sickening.
 
Yep, the whole charging thing makes very little sense. From what I've seen, the most reasonable explanation was that Brown was in shock from being shot, and the succeeding and (fatal) shots occurred as he staggered forward. Staggering forward is easier to do than back-pedaling; and if you've been shot you probably arent gonna turn back around to try to out run successive shots. It is unfortunate he didnt immediately hit the pavement, but again this all happened rather quickly!

Brown sure as hell didn't stagger 20 plus feet in Wilson's direction. That's just reaching and ridiculous. As witness 48 said, "I would have shot him instantly if he had charged at me like that".
 
I suggest you actually read both the witness statements to detectives plus their grand jury testimony. None of the witnesses who claimed that he was shot while fleeing and/or put his hands up in surrender gave any credible testimony. Their claims were inconsistent and contradicted by forensics. That chart you mention doesn't list which witnesses made claims that were refuted by the physical evidence and which contradicted their prior claims when they testified before the grand jury. There was a no bill for a reason -- their testimony was that BAD.

What makes Wilson's story plausible is the forensic evidence at the crime scene which supports virtually EVERY key part of his testimony (the assault and struggle at the SUV, and Brown charging at least 20 feet back toward Wilson after he assaulted him). A legion of lying "witnesses" with racial and anti-cop agendas doesn't trump that. As for Brown doing something suicidal, I can easily reverse that on you -- why would Wilson execute a man who was surrendering with his hands up in front of a dozen witnesses in broad daylight? Two volleys of shots at a man who has his hands up in surrender? Makes no sense. That's career suicide.
Based on the agreed facts, who was more likely to commit "suicide" here -- Brown, very high on dope, who had just robbed convenience store minutes before his confrontation with Wilson (even Dorian Johnson was shocked by Brown's actions, telling the grand jury that he put back the cigars because he knew how wreckless it was to steal something when store security tapes could easily identify you) and then assaulting a cop in his car and trying to wrestle his weapon away, or Wilson, who has no history of police brutality or any criminality whatsoever?

The unhigh-lighted part is just your extremely biased and worthless opinion.
But as to the high-lighted portion, I've never claimed that Wilson executed Brown. I think at best he could have been found guilty of some form of negligent homicide. It's possible that Wilson shot in rage (given that we all agree some sort of altercation occurred at the car) but all things considered, I'd say it's most likely he over-reacted. That's just my worthless opinion, though--would have liked to have seen a trial on the issue ;)
 
Brown sure as hell didn't stagger 20 plus feet in Wilson's direction. That's just reaching and ridiculous. As witness 48 said, "I would have shot him instantly if he had charged at me like that".

I was just referring to the final (fatal) shots.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom