Michael Brown shooting II

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Upchurch said:
The part where you say that you don't have a double standard and then contradict yourself by immediately setting up a double standard. I find it more hypocritical than confusing.
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I do, what? I have no double standard, I openly stated that neither should be used as evidence to show a history. It doesn't establish a history. How is that a double standard at all?

I think you're confusing history with, what I find to be, a current mind set of an individual. They're two separate standards for two separate incidents, and they don't contradict each other. Unless of course you'd like to shed some light on your reasoning.
 
plague311 said:
I do, what? I have no double standard, I openly stated that neither should be used as evidence to show a history. It doesn't establish a history. How is that a double standard at all?
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Meanwhile:
plague311 said:
While the video of Wilson was over a year before this incident, the video of Brown was less than 20 minutes before the altercation. I feel that the Brown video, logically, speaks more to his frame of mind and emotional status directly before the altercation.
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Brown's video speaks to Brown's frame of mind, but Wilson's doesn't, and that is not a double standard? :rolleyes:

plague311 said:
I think you're confusing history with, what I find to be, a current mind set of an individual. They're two separate standards for two separate incidents, and they don't contradict each other.
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If you sub-divide your standards enough, can you really find a way to apply one standard to one video and another to the other? I don't really think that's fooling anyone.
 
TheL8Elvis said:
I think it seems pretty likely that one or more witnesses will have given testimony to the grand jury that differs from their public interviews.

Especially witnesses like Dorian Johnson.

Does your response mean you don't think that will happen ?
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No, this started when I challenged the assertion that there are half a dozen other witnesses who backed up Darren Wilson. I asked what they said, what their names were, and what we know about them so that we may subject their words to scrutiny. As it turns out, we don't even know if they exist, which means using their "testimony" to bolster any argument is complete BS, and I think you knew this.
 
Upchurch said:
Meanwhile:

Brown's video speaks to Brown's frame of mind, but Wilson's doesn't, and that is not a double standard? :rolleyes:
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Uhm, exactly. What about this is complicated? I don't think either video creates a HISTORY for each person. I don't believe, based on either video, that Wilson was racist, or that Brown was a violent thug that hurt people and used his size to his advantage whenever he could. The reason is, because it doesn't...at all.

Upchurch said:
If you sub-divide your standards enough, can you really find a way to apply one standard to one video and another to the other? I don't really think that's fooling anyone.
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I don't care if you think I am trying to fool someone, I'm not. I can't state this with more clarity. The only reason I feel the Brown video has any relevance at all is because it happened within 20 minutes of the actual altercation. Had, minutes before the altercation, Officer Wilson had to subdue a black man that pushed him around and took stuff from him, and we watched a video of Officer Wilson flying off the handle, that video would have a TON of relevance to the actual shooting. Alternately, if the Brown video happened over a year before the shooting I would disregard it the same, as it doesn't go to his mindset AT THE TIME.

Maybe you're confused as to what a double standard is?
 
The difference in the evidence presented by an indifferent, stationary camera recording a scene and a video presented by an individual with an axe to grind is extraordinary large..
 
Upchurch said:
I'd think that would be obvious.
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As obvious as my confusion as to how you're applying it? Apparently not. Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. As I am most certainly not applying a double standard, and you haven't clarified your statement. I'll just disregard it further.

It's surprising to me that you can't separate history from current, and the way I was applying the standards to each. Oh well...
 
plague311 said:
It's surprising to me that you can't separate history from current, and the way I was applying the standards to each.
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I'm surprised you think that about a year is really that long of a time ago that it is entirely meaningless.

I'm surprised that you haven't read the other recent comments in this thread like davefoc's above, or maybe you have and ignored the ones that don't fit the way you like.

I'm surprised that you would hold Unabogie's analysis to a different standard than your own when perhaps he, too, has a more ...nuanced standard he is using, like yourself.

Then again, maybe I'm not very surprised at all.
 
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davefoc said:
Aren't we making reasoned guesses about both men based on those videos?

Was that the first time that Brown had done something like that? I doubt it. Would it be the last I doubt it. Does the video make it more likely that Brown attacked Wilson. Of course.

And similarly, was the confrontation with Arman the first time that Wilson had been a jerk when interacting with the public? Almost certainly not. Did Wilson see his role as a policemen to minimize the potential for violence? I doubt it. As the result of the video is it more likely that Wilson acted in a way that exacerbated the potential for violence in his confrontation with Brown. I think so.

I certainly don't know what happened between Brown and Wilson but both of those videos are part of the information that I use to make a guess about what happened.
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Good post Dave. I think you reasonably summed up what we know and what we can infer from the facts at this time.

I think there is a larger point here. Law enforcement personnel are human but they are also professionals. They should be trained to act in a way as to deescalate situations and to protect and serve. If the stories are correct then there was a pervasive atmosphere of us vs them mentality that may well have contributed to this tragic event. Even if the officer was reasonably in fear of his life I think it quite possible that he, the officer, contributed to the escalation.

IMO, the unrest has largely been due to the fact or the perception that law enforcement in Ferguson bear contempt for many of the citizens they are sworn to protect.
 
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plague311 said:
With some exceptions, yes. While the video of Wilson was over a year before this incident, the video of Brown was less than 20 minutes before the altercation. I feel that the Brown video, logically, speaks more to his frame of mind and emotional status directly before the altercation.
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You're essentially claiming that both of these videos are of people simply having A Bad Day™. And since the video of Wilson is so separated in time from the incident being discussed, you argue that it can't be used against him.

However, people have argued that the video of Brown establishes a history of violence and is not just a one-off moment of poor judgement. I don't know if you were among them, but I can be reasonably certain that I have not witnessed you opposing this characterization at the time. If I'm wrong, I'd greatly appreciate someone pointing out your post where this occurs. If true, however, it seems that only now that video of Wilson's behavior has surfaced do you take up this supposedly well-reasoned argument, and only to wield against the "Wilson ********** up immensely and needs to be severely punished" crowd.

I'd call that a not-so-cleverly disguised double standard.
 
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Unabogie said:
No, this started when I challenged the assertion that there are half a dozen other witnesses who backed up Darren Wilson. I asked what they said, what their names were, and what we know about them so that we may subject their words to scrutiny. As it turns out, we don't even know if they exist, which means using their "testimony" to bolster any argument is complete BS, and I think you knew this.
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I already addressed that point, but you didn't respond:

TheL8Elvis said:
As soon as no bill is returned, and the grand jury evidence is released as promised, you'll know all that. Until then, we can either believe the newspapers, who have reported on the 6-8 witnesses who confirm Wilsons version, or we can imagine it's all part of some vast anti-Michael brown conspiracy to mislead. And I'm not sure what you make of fact the that what Wilson has reported apparently matches the forensic evidence we have. That doesn't make him much of a liar, does it ?
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I assumed that because you didn't address it, you think it's all lies and conspiracy theory, and you believe there really aren't any witnesses that support wilson.

As to the next point we moved on to:

TheL8Elvis said:
I think it seems pretty likely that one or more witnesses will have given testimony to the grand jury that differs from their public interviews.

Especially witnesses like Dorian Johnson.

Does your response mean you don't think that will happen ?
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It seems like you dodged this question. You appeared to express doubt because the language was carefully worded as a hypothetical, as if that somehow it makes it unlikely that peoples public interviews and private testimony would differ.
 
plague311 said:
With some exceptions, yes. While the video of Wilson was over a year before this incident, the video of Brown was less than 20 minutes before the altercation. I feel that the Brown video, logically, speaks more to his frame of mind and emotional status directly before the altercation.
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I’m curious what you think this “frame of mind” is, and how you are able to determine that if you are truly treating the incident as isolated.

The video of Brown demonstrates he had the capacity and willingness to be violent. This provides context for his encounter with Wilson.

The video of Wilson demonstrates he has the capacity and willingness to abuse his authority. This provides context for his encounter with Brown.

I think it’s just that cut and dried.
 
Excuse me for butting in here but how does Armon have the camera in Wilson's face, as Wilson claims in his report, if he has to order Armon down off his porch to arrest him?
 
rwguinn said:
The difference in the evidence presented by an indifferent, stationary camera recording a scene and a video presented by an individual with an axe to grind is extraordinary large..
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I’m not sure how having an “axe to grind” changes the fact that the video clearly and unambiguously shows Wilson abusing his authority by threatening someone with incarceration for exercising a Constitutionally-protected right.
 
Upchurch said:
I'm surprised you think that about a year is really that long of a time ago that it is entirely meaningless.
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How did you get the above statement from


Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
While the video of Wilson was over a year before this incident, the video of Brown was less than 20 minutes before the altercation. I feel that the Brown video, logically, speaks more to his frame of mind and emotional status directly before the altercation.
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ZiprHead said:
Excuse me for butting in here but how does Armon have the camera in Wilson's face, as Wilson claims in his report, if he has to order Armon down off his porch to arrest him?
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I think the response to that question is that since we only see a fraction of the incident, it is possible that the camera was put in Wilson’s face after the events in the video.

Of course, this requires a starting point from which you automatically believe what Wilson says, and you think a police officer who so casually and brazenly tramples Constitutionally-protected rights can be trusted to file an accurate and honest report.
 
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