Michael Brown shooting II

[steve s]

He was wearing shorts.

Which he wore low so that they were covering the knees.
http://theobamacrat.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/mike-brown1.jpg?w=468&h=468

 

[Unabogie]

Which he wore low so that they were covering the knees.
http://theobamacrat.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/mike-brown1.jpg?w=468&h=468

Which were possibly dragged down when he fell or as he ran, which still doesn't explain how a fat person falling only produces "dents" while only charging produces "scrapes".

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

If Baden couldn't determine a precise trajectory, what information did Parcells have that was unavailable to Baden?.....

What did he say that said he couldn't determine the precise trajectory?

 

[casebro]

And so the other items I listed, which are also part of a FOIA request, were held back because...?

The second part of your post is undeniable, which is exactly why police released that info at the same time as they finally released the identity of the shooter.

Please point me to those other FOIA items you listed. They are not on theis page.

Before things get to court, you first ask nicely. "Can I see the video tape?" or "Will you please give my client $280B for poisoning her husband with your tobacco?"

The FPD decided not to pursue the robbery, the defendant was dead, so there was no ongoing investigation to protect. So they complied with the first request at the 'pretty please" stage.

Perhaps those other FOIA items you mentioned were declined because they are related to an ongoing investigation. IE, the cop shooting a fleeing felon.

 

[newyorkguy]

While others may view it differently, I see the release of the surveillance video as a counter to the claim that Brown was a ' gentle giant '<snip>

If there is one phrase that seems to stick in people's craw, at least the people who feel the shooting was justified, it was seeing Murderous Mike called a "gentle giant." Where did that statement come from? When I saw it used it was from teachers at his former high school. This is from the St. Louis Post Dispatch newspaper:

Teachers described Brown as a “gentle giant,” a student who loomed large and didn’t cause trouble...“Everyone else wanted to be a football player, a basketball player,” said Gerard Fuller, who had known Brown since second grade at Pine Lawn Elementary School. “He wanted to own his own business. He’d say, ‘Let’s make something out of nothing.’”...As a freshman, he was in Junior ROTC. His sophomore year he played football. Link

So it seems likely that Brown was a complicated guy with many different sides. Maybe the incident at Ferguson Market was out of character for him, who knows?

 

[Cain]

The story that initially came out is that he was just minding his own business, a cop decided to pick on him (presumably for committing the crime of being black), Brown clearly held his hands up, and the police officer gunned him down.

The video conclusively proved Brown was a big bully who had just come from a robbery. People can argue about the incompetent police department's motives until they're blue in the face, but in the end these accusations are little more than ad hominem.

 

[johnny karate]

If there is one phrase that seems to stick in people's craw, at least the people who feel the shooting was justified, it was seeing Murderous Mike called a "gentle giant."

Yeah, there definitely seems to be some kind of perverse glee certain posters get out of beating this dead horse. I'm not sure why.

So it seems likely that Brown was a complicated guy with many different sides. Maybe the incident at Ferguson Market was out of character for him, who knows?

I think this is probably closer to the truth that any of the knee-jerk reactions from those who proclaim that he probably has an extensive juvenile record or would have gone on to a life of crime anyway.

Quite frankly, all that just smacks of people desperate to confirm their own biases rather than acknowledge that people can be more than just one thing, and it might not be particularly fair to judge any one person based on their worst behavior.

 

[johnny karate]

The story that initially came out is that he was just minding his own business, a cop decided to pick on him (presumably for committing the crime of being black), Brown clearly held his hands up, and the police officer gunned him down.

The video conclusively proved Brown was a big bully who had just come from a robbery. People can argue about the incompetent police department's motives until they're blue in the face, but in the end these accusations are little more than ad hominem.

Yeah, score one for the "He had it coming" crowd, I guess.

However, Brown's status as a "big bully" and the incident at the convenience store don't tell us whether or not his shooting was justified.

So maybe we can move on now.

 

[casebro]

From post 25 above, "...As a freshman, he was in Junior ROTC. His sophomore year he played football. Link"

Okay, so he knew how to charge and tackle. Head down and bust the guy right off his feet.

There goes the "he was bowing in prayer for forgiveness when Wilson executed him" theory.

 

[Kestrel]

From post 25 above, "...As a freshman, he was in Junior ROTC. His sophomore year he played football. Link"

Okay, so he knew how to charge and tackle. Head down and bust the guy right off his feet.

There goes the "he was bowing in prayer for forgiveness when Wilson executed him" theory.

How does knowing how to tackle in football prove that Brown intended to tackle officer Wilson?

 

[rwguinn]

How does knowing how to tackle in football prove that Brown intended to tackle officer Wilson?

Intent is unprovable under nearly any circumstances.

 

[Mumbles]

While others may view it differently, I see the release of the surveillance video as a counter to the claim that Brown was a ' gentle giant '...
Any verbal claim without the video would have been waved away out of hand...

Why would anyone bother, though? I mean, any rational person? I think most rational people would immediately recognize "Gentle Giant" as the sort of thing a mother would call her child, or possibly a character in a Nick Jr. show. And normally, we let it slide as such. Actively trying to work against it will have no effect on people who buy it, and will only anger many who don't buy the line, but see the attempt as adding insult to injury.

ETA: And furthermore, in a town that had already endured days of peaceful protests being met by a wild overreaction by police, this seems designed to goad people into violence. So isn't it odd that this was done right after the governor sent Cpt. Johnson to help with police/community relations?

 

[davefoc]

The story that initially came out is that he was just minding his own business, a cop decided to pick on him (presumably for committing the crime of being black), Brown clearly held his hands up, and the police officer gunned him down.

The video conclusively proved Brown was a big bully who had just come from a robbery. People can argue about the incompetent police department's motives until they're blue in the face, but in the end these accusations are little more than ad hominem.

The tape needed to be released eventually. The discussion is about how and when. It needed to not be released as part of an obvious effort to selectively release evidence that the police believed was exculpatory while not releasing other things on the basis of it being an ongoing investigation.

I believe that a simple statement about the top level facts of the shooting coupled with a mention of how the fact that Brown had been implicated in a strong arm robbery was relevant or not relevant to the shooting was all that was required at the time the tape was released. When did Wilson first hear about the robbery? When did Wilson first become aware that the Brown and Johnson were suspects in a robbery? What actions did Brown take after he came to believe that Brown and Johnson matched the description of the robbers? The reasonable assumption by the community as to the release of the tape without any information as to why the tape was relevant from the police made it look like exactly what the situation was. The police were on Wilson's side and they were going to use the evidence they controlled to justify this shooting.

Police departments sometimes take on the trappings of a club which only take actions to advance the interests of the club. Some of this is OK and even desirable, but when there is a police shooting the citizens have every right to see the good old boy club rules suspended while the actions of the police are investigated objectively. The nature of the release of that tape suggested strongly that the police intended a good old boy coverup of the facts surrounding this shooting.

As to Holder actions: Holder could not have buried the release of that video. If he favored not releasing the video at the time the police department did could it be he was more skilled in public relations than they were and not that he was attempting to mount some grand cover up to promote some sort of political agenda?

That is not to say that other people besides Holder haven't been trying to maximize political gain from this incident. I've mentioned a couple of times in this thread that that is exactly what I think is going on. Political partisans on both sides are less concerned about the facts and more concerned about working the incident into a meme that promotes their partisan interests.

 

[Kestrel]

I think this is probably closer to the truth that any of the knee-jerk reactions from those who proclaim that he probably has an extensive juvenile record or would have gone on to a life of crime anyway.

I have seen the claim that Brown's juvenile record includes second degree murder circulating on other forums. I haven't seen anything resembling a reliable source for that claim.

ETA: With a name as common as Michael Brown, this could just be another person with the same name.

 

[rwguinn]

I have seen the claim that Brown's juvenile record includes second degree murder circulating on other forums. I haven't seen anything resembling a reliable source for that claim.

ETA: With a name as common as Michael Brown, this could just be another person with the same name.

There has not been a single reliable source for ANY of the speculation in these two threads, other than a video of the robbery and a second-hand autopsy (Which has been issued by the deceased's family lawyer)

 

[newyorkguy]

<snip> There goes the "he was bowing in prayer for forgiveness when Wilson executed him" theory.

No one has suggested this scenario other than people who seem to think the shooting is justified. I understand it's sarcasm but I wonder about this remark being made over and over. I wonder because some people do seem to have so much hostility towards Brown -- and the other Michael Browns out there (one poster said he sees Michael Browns everyday and "the police are the only protection we have") -- that I wonder.

Are you suggesting, even facetiously, that unless Brown bowed down and prayed to Officer Wilson to forgive him than Wilson was justified in killing him?

 

[Mumbles]

There has not been a single reliable source for ANY of the speculation in these two threads, other than a video of the robbery and a second-hand autopsy (Which has been issued by the deceased's family lawyer)

And an audio of at least some of the gunshots. And while not infallible, several witness statements that all say basically the same thing. And photos and video of Brown's body in the street.

 

[Kestrel]

There has not been a single reliable source for ANY of the speculation in these two threads, other than a video of the robbery and a second-hand autopsy (Which has been issued by the deceased's family lawyer)

The audio recording of the gunshots and crime scene photos don't count?

 

[davefoc]

The audio recording of the gunshots and crime scene photos don't count?

Still I think the gist of his point is valid. Most of the investigation details haven't been released, which means that, as has been noted by most of the people that have commented, when reliable facts become available their opinions/guesses might change.

 

[pakeha]

The link I provided would give you some idea of that, actually.
Now, about your assertion Brown had no criminal record.
I asked if juvenile records were sealed and I haven't seen a reply to that yet. I may have missed your answer, of course.
How do you know Brown had no record?

http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2014/08/27/lawsuit-filed-for-alleged-michael-brown-juvenile-records/

A lawsuit has been filed seeking the release of any juvenile records that might exist on the central figure in the Ferguson deadly shooting case.

Thanks, TheL8Elvis.

If there is one phrase that seems to stick in people's craw, at least the people who feel the shooting was justified, it was seeing Murderous Mike called a "gentle giant." Where did that statement come from? When I saw it used it was from teachers at his former high school. This is from the St. Louis Post Dispatch newspaper:



So it seems likely that Brown was a complicated guy with many different sides. Maybe the incident at Ferguson Market was out of character for him, who knows?

From post 25 above, "...As a freshman, he was in Junior ROTC. His sophomore year he played football. Link"

Okay, so he knew how to charge and tackle. Head down and bust the guy right off his feet.

There goes the "he was bowing in prayer for forgiveness when Wilson executed him" theory.

How very odd. I recall reading a family member saying that Brown was so shy that although the family wanted him to, he refused to sign up for football.
Off to hunt down that article.

ETA
Found.

“We called him the gentle giant. He was a gentle giant,” said Charles Ewing, Brown’s uncle.

His family tried to get him to play football. Brown was too timid for the sport, Ewing said.

“He had never gotten into a fight in his entire life,” said Duane Finnie, a family friend.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...4d65e6-2257-11e4-8593-da634b334390_story.html