Michael Brown shooting II

[PhantomWolf]

Yes I am - He had back up coming. By his own statement he recognized the area he was in was dangerous and very anti police. The office,from his own testimony said he had hit Brown at least twice before Brown started to move back towards him. A good blast of mace as Brown charged would have dropped hin like a stone

wow, just wow. Mace is only effective within 10 feet, Brown was shot at about 10 feet, so no, mace would have required allowing him far closer than he was killed at and secondly

The products covered by this consent agreement include Mace and other chemical self-protection products. We advise that you limit your use of Mace in accordance with these restrictions:

(1) Mace may not be effective against armed assailants;

(2) Mace may take several seconds to work; and (3) Mace may not work on enraged, drugged, or intoxicated assailants.

But hey, if you want to take the risk of having an enraged, homicidal, stoned, guy who outweighs you by 30 kg and is charging at you, get within 10 feet of you so you can see if it will actually even work on him, be my guest, just be sure to complete your Will first, okay?

 

[MG1962]

But hey, if you want to take the risk of having an enraged, homicidal, stoned, guy who outweighs you by 30 kg and is charging at you, get within 10 feet of you so you can see if it will actually even work on him, be my guest, just be sure to complete your Will first, okay?

Who is now blinded lol

 

[PhantomWolf]

Well take it up with Wilson because an interview on CBS he said he shot at him as he chased him, but could not tell if he hit him

Strange thing, physical evidence always trumps eye witness testimony for a reason, and a very good one at that.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Who is now blinded lol

Nice come back, care to disprove anything I stated?

He had 30kg on Wilson. This is a fact.
He was enraged, stated by Wilson, and also his actions
He was stoned, Autopsy results showed 150% the level of Impairment for THC
He was Homicidal. He was charging a cop after having tried to take the cop's gun, it wasn't like he intended to run over and shake hands.
He was charging, stated by Wilson, backed up by 2 independent witness and others stated that he was moving towards Wilson.

Ball is in your court.

 

[PhantomWolf]

So then you are against police officers terminating car chases because of safety issues. Maybe the police should not pussy foot with the protesters, just blast away till they are all dead and no longer a threat.

Oranges and Boomerangs.

A Car being chased is not a deadly threat to the officer's chasing, but rather to other's because of the chase (though personally I also believe that pulling out in fact encourages people to try and get away.) Rioters (they aren't protesters) should be dealt with in a manner appropriate to their threat. If they are posing an imminent and deadly threat to officers or others, then I'm fine with them being shot.

Brown was posing an imminent and deadly threat, Wilson acted in self defence.

 

[12AX7]

Thanks for reminding me why I am still a Liberal.
I am going to go get a shower now.

Agree.

I don't know if I count as a Brown supporter. I think Wilson was probably guilty of bad police procedure but I suspected he may not have been guilty of a crime and I suspected that there wouldn't be enough evidence for a grand jury to indict him even if he was guilty of a crime.

Nothing I've read has changed my opinion about any of that. Should it?

I suspect Wilson is lying about his attempts at politeness with Brown and Johnson when he first encounters them based on his misrepresentations of his interaction with Arman shown in the video linked to above. But I don't think any uncorroborated thing that Johnson says about the interaction has any credibility either. He was engaged in criminal activity near the time of the interaction and that almost completely discounts his credibility in my opinion.

I have been disappointed at the celebration in this thread. A young man was killed and his family was devastated. That seems like a sad enough situation that it might have dimmed the enthusiasm for cartoons and jokes. There's a good chance that more considered actions by Wilson would not have led to a situation where he felt it necessary to shoot Brown. US policemen kill a lot of people these days and video of the shooting of the mentally off individual linked to earlier in this thread suggests to me that something is wrong about the training of US policemen with regard to the use of deadly force.

The rioting in Ferguson will probably be devastating for citizens for years to come. Communities that experience these kind of riots continue to suffer the consequences for generations. The community needed to take a strong stand against lawlessness and support efforts to prevent the looting and burning. The actions are not in protest of excessive police force they are an insult to the family of Brown and his supporters. Where was the so called black leadership when courage was required? Their lack of action provides further evidence that they are cowardly exploiters.

Me, too. No, wait. Not disappointed. What's the word?

Disgusted.

This thread has demonstrated the most sociopathic display of glee at death and destruction I've ever witnessed on this board. I've just about had my fill.


The evidence presented to the grand jury is exactly what I have been looking at. However, it is important to remember that the grand jury was not asked to determine what actually happened. They were asked to determine if a crime could be established based on certain definitions under the law. In the end, those two things may be the same thing, but it is incorrect to assume that they are identical. It is also a logical fallacy to look to the grand jury as an applicable authority on a question they have no expertise in and weren't specifically pursuing.

I held the belief that Wilson probably did not violate protocol when he shot Michael Brown to death, and I enjoy gallows humor, but I'll agree with others saying the comments in this thread last night were "disappointing" to "disgusting." Maybe it's because I'm afraid of groups of people, so an off-hand comment about the Little Caesar's "peacefully" burning down can be hilarious, but all that mayhem and destruction was met here with something approaching revelry.

There are people in this thread enjoying the rioting just as much as the people engaging in it, but for different reasons. It confirms a thing they've always believed about certain people, and they're enjoying it immensely.

Which, in a powerful feedback loop, was confirming certain stereotypes about those certain people.

This is the closest, I feel, that anyone has come to discussing the actual root issue here. It will be promptly ignored and never mentioned again.

If they were to call these very same people savages and animals on any other day, they'd be rightfully mocked and/or shunned for such blatant bigotry.

If you're going to call these people animals for their current behavior, you have to be quite comfortable with the idea that they are animals, always; not just different from the rest of us, but inferior. After all, a lion is no less an animal when it's resting in the shade of a tree than when it's tearing flesh from a fresh kill.

Christmas comes early for the bigots, if only because they feel they can publicly and gleefully express their bigotry.

ETA: There's a saying that people are revealed in crisis. I propose that people are also revealed in victory.

Agree with all the above.

It amazes me watching the select crew here tear their collective rotator cuffs slapping one another on the back, engaging in "I told you so"s while a community descends into anarchy. Indeed, using the same "peaceful" lingo that they decry others for using "responsible gun owners", as noted upthread. This same group who no doubt agree justice was served when OJ walked, because the "system worked".

This community's behavior is symptomatic of something much deeper than the shooting of Michael Brown. When we see almost daily videos of legitimate police abuses, it doesn't take much for a group of people to have had enough. For this particular community, the Brown shooting was that point.

Brown played a stupid game and won a stupid prize, but the celebrations here among the fora posters on the internet anonymous sidelines is sickening.

Well played. 12AX7 out.

 

[Iamafalser]

Wilson should have had a discussion with Brown and convinced him that it was in Brown's best interest to surrender.

 

[WildCat]

That is one of the issues. Why did he choose to be alone with a dangerous subject?

Because that's the job description. Cops are supposed to arrest dangerous suspects, not run away from them.

 

[WildCat]

Only because he chased him nearly 50 meters down the street shooting at him

Where's the evidence he shot at him running away?

 

[William Parcher]

You could always slap them with the cigars you just stole.

The cigars are really popular!

Arrest list with narrations. There are 4 people on this list who looted cigars and cigarillos.

The Walgreens was looted for prescription drugs. One guy was found with codeine and another was already drinking cough syrup he took.

At the Dollar Store, some guy got electronics, candy, cigarillos and women's underwear.

Different kinds of crimes in the list. I'd post quotes but the site won't let me copy anything.

 

[theprestige]

A gun makes a big man, doesn't it?

That is the entire point of a gun, yes. We're not talking about the junior varsity wrestling league, here. There is no sane reason why Wilson should have sought or accepted an even contest against a violent assailant.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Because that's the job description. Cops are supposed to arrest dangerous suspects, not run away from them.

We had a shooting here where the criminal was armed with an aluminium baseball bat and after forcing two officers about 50m down the street, closing the gap from 30m to 10m, one of them believed that they were about to be backed into a corner, and fired, killing the guy. He ended up facing a murder charge from a private prosecution, and was found not guilty. I read all the testimonies, what happened was extremely obvious to anyone that bothered reading the witness statements and the reports (which the police put online). There are still people that believe and claim it was a deliberate murder.

I firmly believe that some people are of the opinion that the Police should do everything to protect the life of criminals that given have the chance would show exactly no mercy to those same police officers, including running away and letting the violent thug get away rather than having the Officers try and sort the situation out because it might mean that the officers end up killing them in self defence.

 

[Giz]

Because that's the job description. Cops are supposed to arrest dangerous suspects, not run away from them.

But just think, what if instead of SWAT teams, we employed HUG teams? No confrontation, just hugging (or running away). Just imagine, it's easy if you try.

 

[bobdroege7]

Wilson should have had a discussion with Brown and convinced him that it was in Brown's best interest to surrender.

Like telling him to stop and get on the ground, at least twice.

 

[WildCat]

Well take it up with Wilson because an interview on CBS he said he shot at him as he chased him, but could not tell if he hit him

I think you misunderstood that part. I haven't found any source that says that's what he told ABC's George Stephanopoulos, and it's certainly not what he told the Grand Jury and there's nothing that indicates that in the physical evidence of shell casing locations.

 

[Olowkow]

retreated to where? look at where the shell casings and Brown's body is and where the vehicle is.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=853&pictureid=9283[/qimg]

152 feet = ~51m. Brown was 9m away when he started back towards Wilson and about 3m away at the time of the fatal shot.



Absolutely irrelevant when dealing with a guy that outweighs you by 70lb and has already assaulted and tried to murder you.

I'll say it more clearly. The chase and all shooting didn't have to happen. He could have retreated by placing his vehicle in drive and pressing the gas pedal before the chase. After the chase and the shots fired, he could have likely outrun a guy with several bullet wounds in him.

Cops are supposed to avoid force and use lethal force when every other means fails. Wilson did not have to pursue the perp on foot after he nearly lost his weapon to Brown. He made a judgement error when he went after this dangerous crazed felon alone knowing that backup was moments away. He had an HT surely, and could have reported suspect fleeing north on foot, etc. It happens all the time. The identity of the suspect was very likely known since there were so many witnesses.

Firing a weapon in a residential neighborhood to subdue a guy who stole a few items, threatened a shop owner and hit a cop is crazy unless that perp is on his way to abduct or kill someone.

As for my questions about Wilson's characteristics, personality and medications, they are very relevant. In particular, anabolic steroid rage is poorly understood but might account for quite a few murders these days. Low self esteem is also very relevant when discovered in the personality of a police officer. Some cops drop out because they cannot get beyond their rage at being called names.

 

[bobdroege7]

The claim was there was a pic with blood etc., "not very pretty" or words to to that effect. I'm not a doctor, but sounds serious, see pics at link.


But we may never know without a trial and the ability to cross examine and test the veracity of witnesses and defendant. That's what "no true bill" means.

ETA: No True Bill is a finding by a grand jury that there is no probable cause to decide that a crime has been committed. An unknown number of jurors found that Wilson was in mortal fear for his life and was justified in killing a man when he had ample time to flee or wait for competent backup. That's what this grand jury said when they did not indict.

I was just pointing out that your judgement of "superficial" was premature and should and was performed by competent medical personel.

If Wilson was charged and brought to trial, that is still no guarantee that anyone would be able to cross examine Wilson. Defendants do not have to take the stand, fifth amendment stuff. Him testifying for the grand jury, in effect was allowing a cross examination. The way I understand it, he was open to any and all questions brought by the grand jury.

He was not justified in killing Brown, but he was justified in using deadly force to stop Brown, after Brown refused to comply with Wilson's repeated instructions to get on the ground. Fleeing is not part of the job description.

 

[mgidm86]

I'll say it more clearly. The chase and all shooting didn't have to happen. He could have retreated by placing his vehicle in drive and pressing the gas pedal before the chase. After the chase and the shots fired, he could have likely outrun a guy with several bullet wounds in him.

Cops are supposed to avoid force and use lethal force when every other means fails. Wilson did not have to pursue the perp on foot after he nearly lost his weapon to Brown. He made a judgement error when he went after this dangerous crazed felon alone knowing that backup was moments away. He had an HT surely, and could have reported suspect fleeing north on foot, etc. It happens all the time. The identity of the suspect was very likely known since there were so many witnesses.

Firing a weapon in a residential neighborhood to subdue a guy who stole a few items, threatened a shop owner and hit a cop is crazy unless that perp is on his way to abduct or kill someone.
As for my questions about Wilson's characteristics, personality and medications, they are very relevant. In particular, anabolic steroid rage is poorly understood but might account for quite a few murders these days. Low self esteem is also very relevant when discovered in the personality of a police officer. Some cops drop out because they cannot get beyond their rage at being called names.

You can't be serious. Talk about glossing over some important facts. If you hit a cop and try to take his....

Troll.

 

[NoahFence]

Cops are supposed to run away from criminals? What the hell are the handcuffs for?

 

[Mike!]

Cops are supposed to run away from criminals? What the hell are the handcuffs for?

The bedroom, of course.