LTC8K6
Penultimate Amazing
Well, there will be a record then.
Michael Brown shooting II
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Well, there will be a record then.
johnny karate
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If Brown was armed, if Brown did not have his hands in the air, if Brown was charging Wilson, if Brown was in close enough proximity to harm Wilson, if Brown was ignoring repeated commands from Wilson...
All those are scenarios in which I would think Brown could potentially be viewed as an imminent threat.
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
The witnesses, (I don't know why the need for quotes), may not trust the legal system there.
plague311
Great minds think...
I hate to point out the obvious, but that's what every defense attorney tells every individual they are representing, always. That isn't anything specifically for corrupt cops, it's common sense advice for everyone that is speaking or dealing with the law. Don't say more than you have to, don't incriminate yourself. Maybe you didn't know that.
Also, Skeptic Ginger is wrong about Wilson not being interviewed. Multiple sources, including a few that L8Elvis cited, show that he has spoken to authorities on multiple occasions. He has, also now, spoken in front of the Grand Jury.
RandFan
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I honestly don't know what happened or if the shooting was justified. If I were on the jury I would look to the prosecutor and defense atty to make their case as to what happened. I would look to the Judge to instruct me as to the law. If the officer's actions fit the legal definition of justifiable self defense then I would not vote to convict. If it did not fit the definition and/or the officer was acting contrary to established protocols then I would vote to convict based on the law as delineated to me by the judge.
Absent being on a jury, I would form an opinion of justified self defense if the actions of the defendant would meet the reasonable person standard of a threat. You cannot shoot a person just because that person at one point resisted arrest or attacked the officer. In this case I'd need to see evidence that demonstrated to me that there was a preponderance of the evidence that Brown was charging the officer. That standard is insufficient for criminal conviction but sufficient for a reasonable citizen to form an opinion.
As it is (absent any other reasonable scenario) the evidence would need to show that Brown was charging the officer and at some point bent forward sufficiently for the officer's bullet to strike Brown in the head.
The notion that any perception on the part of the officer was sufficient to justify deadly force is not correct. It's far more complex than that. WHAT’S REASONABLE?: SELF-DEFENSE AND MISTAKE IN CRIMINAL AND TORT LAW
TheL8Elvis
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More poisoning the well , despite the fact that:
Wilson was not obligated to testify, and also has spoken with St. Louis County investigators twice and federal investigators once, the source said. The source said that Wilson had been “cooperative.”
Mumbles
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Good.
Again, I'm still not convinced that he did anything wrong. If he was badly injured, then I can fully understand how many shots he fired. And I don't fully agree with the Ferguson protestors on this. But he did kill a person, and there should always be accountability for that.
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
TheL8Elvis
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How is a lawyer going to help her trust the police ? Or, protect her from her mistrust of the police, or the legal system there.
She is a witness. Other than giving a witness statement .... I don't get it.
Could one or both of you help me understand more specifically how an attorney can actually help protect whatever interest these witnesses think they have in this case ?
Mumbles
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It's even more simple than that. If he was in Julie for some reason, we know that:
1) black kids are much more likely to be pushed into the criminal justice system than white kids, for the same offenses, and
2) having a history of minor crimes is not at all justification for shooting Brown.
These reporters are basically just trolling. What's needed, at this point, is for the grand jury to hear all of the evidence, and for the local police to not act like a bunch of terrorists because of a nonviolent protest, and yet not bother with actual looting, and that's really it. The first is apparently happening, the second...well...not so much.
Skeptic Ginger
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I didn't say he was or wasn't. I posted the contradictory evidence.
Thanks for the response, and the paper was a good read. I agree that it is indeed complex, and the cases covered are all those where both parties were civilians. A paper on the same subject but with an analysis of cases covered where one of the parties was LE on duty would also be very informative.
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
A precedent for what? Releasing of juvenile records for victims of police shootings?
Do we anticipate a lot of those in the future, in Ferguson?
Do we anticipate a lot of those in the future, in Ferguson?
I think it's simply a case where an attorney will help this witness deal with the media and all of the public attention they are receiving and likely to continue receiving. They are probably doing it either pro bono or for a low fee, in exchange for the notoriety. Just a guess though.
johnny karate
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These witnesses may distrust the police or the prosecutor's office and find them hostile. These witnesses may think they will be forced to do or say things they do not want to do.
In short, these witnesses live in a community in which it is not entirely unreasonable for them to fear law enforcement. I don't blame them for wanting some protection, only if it's just for peace of mind.
johnny karate
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In Ferguson or other places.
And yes, it would set a terrible precedent since it is quite clearly about nothing more than mud-slinging.
Skeptic Ginger
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It's not a difficult concept when you live in a community where you don't trust the police and you see things like this:
Man Who Shot Eric Garner Chokehold Video Arrested
Attacking a victim's character is not typically allowed in any case. Why should it be allowed here?
Are the people calling for Brown's juvenile records also expressing the same concerns about any complaints on record against Wilson from the Jennings police department that was full of corruption and racism?
casebro
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"Witnesses" is in quotes because we don't know whether they ever were interviewed by the official investigators.
Personally, when I made a typographic anomaly and it came our "witlesses" I left it that way.
"Sworn witnesses" vs un-sworn might be a better distinction, since lying to an officer has official ramifications. BS'ing the talking heads is merely entertainment. Wasn't the first news report "executed while surrendering" or some such hyperbole?
Personally, when I made a typographic anomaly and it came our "witlesses" I left it that way.
"Sworn witnesses" vs un-sworn might be a better distinction, since lying to an officer has official ramifications. BS'ing the talking heads is merely entertainment. Wasn't the first news report "executed while surrendering" or some such hyperbole?
Mumbles
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Well, it's not about Ferguson per se, since they rarely have shootings at all. But let's recall that the St. Louis police rather famously shot a guy in the meantime (a shooting I think is mistaken, but a reasonable one).
And of course, there have been other cases of releasing juvenile records in order to smear a shooting victim - see Rudy "he was no altar boy" Guiliani for a particularly idiotic example of this.
Unlike the c-store robbery, I don't see Brown's juvenile record as being particularly relevant to the events leading to Brown's death. For those looking for a reason why Brown acted in the manner he is alleged to have done on that day -- and those asserting those claimed behaviors would be unlikely or out-of-character -- the records may contain relevant information toward a critical-thinking analysis.
The outrage over people questioning those contents does seem a bit self-serving in the light of those same people seemingly casting aspersions on Wilson as somehow being infected by racism over his past. Certainly the press was sold a bill of goods concerning Brown's demeanor and propensity toward intimidation that merits closer scrutiny in hindsight.
When it's all tallied, I think in this case preserving the confidentiality of the juvenile record has more weight -- especially since the court revealed there were no serious felony convictions and IIRC, no outstanding warrants. The more immediate importance here is what led to the circumstance of Brown's death rather than why those circumstances occurred.
The outrage over people questioning those contents does seem a bit self-serving in the light of those same people seemingly casting aspersions on Wilson as somehow being infected by racism over his past. Certainly the press was sold a bill of goods concerning Brown's demeanor and propensity toward intimidation that merits closer scrutiny in hindsight.
When it's all tallied, I think in this case preserving the confidentiality of the juvenile record has more weight -- especially since the court revealed there were no serious felony convictions and IIRC, no outstanding warrants. The more immediate importance here is what led to the circumstance of Brown's death rather than why those circumstances occurred.
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