Michael Brown shooting II

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TheL8Elvis said:
Because if you continue approaching, that can reasonably be perceived as a threat. Especially if there was another person to also be wary of, one who is now out of sight, potentially coming up behind you.
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There's also some context dispute. For sake of argument:

I get detained for jaywalking and as a suspect in an earlier strong arm robbery. I start walking toward the officer. Clearly, there is no justification for the use of lethal force with those facts alone.

I get detained for jaywalking and as a suspect in an earlier strong arm robbery. I assault the police officer in the car, inflict serious facial injuries, struggle over his firearm and attempt to flee. I start walking toward the officer...
 
Cylinder said:
There's also some context dispute. For sake of argument:

I get detained for jaywalking and as a suspect in an earlier strong arm robbery. I start walking toward the officer. Clearly, there is no justification for the use of lethal force with those facts alone.

I get detained for jaywalking and as a suspect in an earlier strong arm robbery. I assault the police officer in the car, inflict serious facial injuries, struggle over his firearm and attempt to flee. I start walking toward the officer...
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Yeah, you forgot one:

I get detained for jaywalking and as a suspect in an earlier strong arm robbery. I assault the police officer in the car, inflict minor facial injuries, struggle over his firearm and attempt to flee. I then run away. The officer fires a volley of bullets at me after yelling "GET BACK HERE!!". I start walking toward the officer...
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The sources I have seen for the dispatcher alert issued regarding the theft of the cigars indicate the crime was described as "stealing in progress". Officer Wilson may have suspected Michael Brown was a thief, but had no reason at that time to treat him as a dangerous felon.

Has anyone seen a transcript or audio of dispatcher communications around the time of the shooting?
 
Cylinder said:
There's also some context dispute. For sake of argument:

I get detained for jaywalking and as a suspect in an earlier strong arm robbery. I start walking toward the officer. Clearly, there is no justification for the use of lethal force with those facts alone.

I get detained for jaywalking and as a suspect in an earlier strong arm robbery. I assault the police officer in the car, inflict serious facial injuries, struggle over his firearm and attempt to flee. I start walking toward the officer...
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With my hands up?
 
Unabogie said:
Wow. Contemporaneous video, shot just after the killing.

"He had his *********** hands in the air!"

http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/us...ewire/cnn-ferguson-video-bystanders-hands-air

I'm not sure how long people are going to keep pretending that these witnesses didn't see what they clearly saw.
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Upchurch said:
New Michael Brown shooting witnesses describe scene

More eye witnesses. This may be the largest audience to a shooting ever.
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Just to be clear, it's not breaking news. These are the witnesses we have been posting about the last 4 days.
 
OnlyTellsTruths said:
Yeah, you forgot one:

I get detained for jaywalking and as a suspect in an earlier strong arm robbery. I assault the police officer in the car, inflict minor facial injuries, struggle over his firearm and attempt to flee. I then run away. The officer fires a volley of bullets at me after yelling "GET BACK HERE!!". I start walking toward the officer...
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A) We don't know the extent of the facial injuries

B) A struggle over a firearm is far from minor

C) It doesn't appear that wilson fired more than two shots at brown while he was fleeing. i.e. not a volley

D) I don't think we have any clear witnesses claims of wilson yelling anything. Which, as I posted earlier, I find puzzling.
 
Unabogie said:
Wow. Contemporaneous video, shot just after the killing.

"He had his *********** hands in the air!"

http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/us...ewire/cnn-ferguson-video-bystanders-hands-air

I'm not sure how long people are going to keep pretending that these witnesses didn't see what they clearly saw.
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Cooper says because Mitchell or Crenshaw (not sure which he refers to) wore a shirt supporting Brown in the interview with CNN that means she was biased, her testimony is suspect.

What is missing from Cooper's opinion about the credibility of the witness is the obvious, if you saw the police a day before shoot an unarmed man trying to surrender, why wouldn't you support that victim?

And the guy on the right in the panel discussion discounting the new video of the aftermath admits it was probably only about 3 minutes after the shooting (I think the lack of a gathered crowd tells you it was right after the shooting), just after he tried to discount the ad hoc gesture of the white construction guy putting his hands up as not soon enough after the shooting to mean anything. Then he goes on to simply dismiss all the witnesses saying we don't yet know what happened.

I get it one needs the trial to convict Wilson. But to claim there is so little evidence we don't have any idea of what happened is only justified if you dismiss all these witnesses while cherry picking the two that only said Brown was moving forward, not that he was threatening Wilson.

If all these witnesses saw Brown as surrendering, why are people still giving Wilson a pass on "feeling threatened"?

Where do you draw the line? You try to surrender, multiple people can see you are trying to surrender but the cop is allowed to kill you anyway and claim he thought you were a threat? At what point does the cop have a duty to recognize a person is surrendering, not attacking? Never?

It appears to me what it appeared at the beginning, Wilson lost control, shot in a cloud of emotion (much more likely anger than fear) that didn't allow him to properly assess Brown's attempt to surrender. And Wilson had a duty to carry out his job competently. Shooting in anger is not competently carrying out your job.
 
I see that man on the right side of the CNN panel was Neil Bruntrager, general counsel for the St. Louis Police Officers Association.
 
Lerxst said:
Okay. But it's alright to start with the conclusion that Brown was surrendering and work backwards from there, right?
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I'm not working backwards from any conclusion. I'm simply going where the evidence takes me. How many more witnesses do you need to say Brown had his hands up before we can acknowledge that he had his hands up?

By changing his mind I am referring to Brown initially resisting and then changing his mind and deciding to surrender.
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If Brown resisted arrest and/or assaulted Wilson, I'm not sure why you don't think he had the option of surrendering. Of course he does.

Brown doesn't need to be trying to kill Wilson to be a threat, and to me it's unrealistic to think the threat expires in such a short period of time. It's easy enough for us to sit here and criticize Wilson but for all we know (and at least we do know he claims this happened) Brown had just punched him multiple times and tried to take his weapon. Even if Brown runs away at that point, it's not reasonable for me to expect the officer to just assume he is no longer a threat. Evidence now shows that it's possible he turned back toward Wilson and did not stop moving toward him. If Wilson was just assaulted by Brown, I'm sorry but I can't fault him for firing at that point.
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You assume a lot of facts not in evidence in your scenario, and it's still one in which it's okay to shoot dead an unarmed person with his hands up.
 
Unabogie said:
Wow. Contemporaneous video, shot just after the killing.

"He had his *********** hands in the air!"

http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/us...ewire/cnn-ferguson-video-bystanders-hands-air

I'm not sure how long people are going to keep pretending that these witnesses didn't see what they clearly saw.
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How long are you going to pretend that eye witnesses are reliable..

I'm not saying that is the case here, but the fact remains that eye witness accounts are not reliable..
 
Kestrel said:
The sources I have seen for the dispatcher alert issued regarding the theft of the cigars indicate the crime was described as "stealing in progress". Officer Wilson may have suspected Michael Brown was a thief, but had no reason at that time to treat him as a dangerous felon.

Has anyone seen a transcript or audio of dispatcher communications around the time of the shooting?
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The BOLO is in reference to a "stealing." I posted the dispatch notes some pages ago. Wilson cannot rely on Brown's strong arm robbery alone for justification for use of deadly force to effect arrest. The jury instruction is posted just a bit earlier in this page or the last.
 
TheL8Elvis said:
A) We don't know the extent of the facial injuries
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Or that he even has any.

B) A struggle over a firearm is far from minor
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If it even took place.

C) It doesn't appear that wilson fired more than two shots at brown while he was fleeing. i.e. not a volley
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It wasn't that long ago in this thread (probably the previous one, actually) that the idea that Wilson shot at a fleeing Brown was scoffed at.

Now we've downgraded to "Well, he only shot at him twice while he was fleeing".

I wonder how many more times Wilson could have potentially shot at Brown while Brown was running away, and Wilson would still get a pass.

D) I don't think we have any clear witnesses claims of wilson yelling anything. Which, as I posted earlier, I find puzzling.
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And we have witnesses specifically saying Wilson said nothing as he shot Brown to death. No commands to freeze or get on the ground. Nothing.

I find that very troubling.
 
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