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Split Thread Michael Brown and Katrina

RandFan said:
It's relative. It's meant to demonstrate the paucity of substantive preparation.
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"Brown did nothing" is not in any remote way, no matter how you parse the English language, "relative." It is an absolutist claim, and it is disproven by links that you have posted in this very thread.

RandFan said:
So, you think Bush bears no blame whatsoever? He made no mistakes?
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....and the Rule of SoTM brings us 2 more straw men to attack. You are veering dangerously close to religious apologetics logic here.
 
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carlitos said:
"Brown did nothing" is not in any remote way, no matter how you parse the English language, "relative." It is an absolutist claim, and it is disproven by links that you have posted in this very thread.
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Literally. No one can ever exaggerate by using absolutes. I've never ever done it and I never ever will. The reason I've never ever used absolutes in an exaggerated fashion is because it is literally impossible to ever use an absolute in such a fashion. No one could ever even think of using an absolute to make a rhetorical point. Never. Ever. And I mean that in an absolute sense.
 
I'm out. RandFan, if you want to make this presentation without discussion, perhaps you should do so in a place that isn't a discussion forum. Like a blog or something. Good luck.
 
RandFan is guilty of trying to keep the thread on track with the OP. The loyal opposition prefers to discuss everything but. Seems clear they have no response other they to derail. Thread over, winner, OP.
 
carlitos said:
I'm out. RandFan, if you want to make this presentation without discussion, perhaps you should do so in a place that isn't a discussion forum. Like a blog or something. Good luck.
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Thanks for your input Carlitos. I didn't start the thread to discuss the failure of locals. I never said you couldn't discuss it. It just that no one has made a case for the relevance. I've said multiple times that I would engage others on side issues if they could show the relevance to the OP.
 
RandFan said:
Thanks for your input Carlitos. I didn't start the thread to discuss the failure of locals. I never said you couldn't discuss it. It just that no one has made a case for the relevance. I've said multiple times that I would engage others on side issues if they could show the relevance to the OP.
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The accidental irony here is blinding, given that you didn't even intend to start the thread. Your so-called OP was an egregious derail from the Benghazi thread. Whichever moderator it was who failed in his or her duty to enforce the MA (and, yes, it was I who reported your original derail as an egregious Rule 11 breach) is the one who deserves credit for the OP (and the title of course). Not being a mind reader, I can't say with any precision what was going through his or her head at the time, but neither do you. I can say, however, that limiting an entire thread to discuss the ridiculous proposition that Michael Brown had committed a crime through his negligence or depraved indifference, is, well, ridiculous.
 
The debate about whether the failures attributed to Brown in the OP are properly his, or should be attributed to others (e.g., local officials), is central to the topic of the thread.

Questioning the OP's claim and examining counter-claims is not something the OP can preemptively declare off-limits. It's hard to imagine something less skeptical, less indicative of critical thought, than insisting that the claim "Brown is at fault" does not admit discussion of whether the fault properly lies elsewhere.










Also, the irony is indeed rich, of a member whose thread started as a massive off-topic derail of another thread now complaining that relevant discussion of their claim is off-topic.
 
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theprestige said:
Also, the irony is indeed rich, of a member whose thread started as a massive off-topic derail of another thread now complaining that relevant discussion of their claim is off-topic.
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I've not said to anyone they cannot discuss side issues. I've just said that I'm not going to UNLESS you can make a case that the issue is material to the OP.

The debate about whether the failures attributed to Brown in the OP are properly his, or should be attributed to others (e.g., local officials), is central to the topic of the thread.
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Fair. Aside from my tactical error of using the rhetorical device "Brown did Nothing". What specifically have I attributed to Brown that is not properly his fault (note I've softened my stand somewhat to accept that perhaps Brown's culpability is mitigated or eliminated by changes due to the new Homeland Security.
 
sunmaster14 said:
Bit of a strawman there.
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Maybe, but also claiming that the people who were stuck in NO 'shouldn't have been there' is quite the straw target as well. No evacuation is ever perfect, even with the threat of arrests there were still folks on the barrier islands of New Jersey when Sandy hit. Given that a large percentage of NO residents were poorer and had fewer resources than the barrier island crowd it is not a surprise. I find the whole 'They shouldn'a been dere' attitude to be victim blaming at its worst.

Although most of these residents joined the flow of traffic out of the city on Sunday, many remained in their homes hoping for the best, and others headed to the Superdome rather than taking the few city buses available to out of town shelters (Filosa 2005). Those going to the Superdome and later the Morial Convention Center believed that these shelters would provide sufficient protection until the storm had passed but hadn’t considered the flooding that occurred when several levees were breeched. In fact, the people hit hardest by the flooding were also those from neighborhoods where poverty was most concentrated as a result of the concentration of federally subsidized housing (Katz 2005). Not coincidently, they were least able to leave the city without assistance.
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Now keep in mind that one of the reason for Federal agencies is to help or enforce when the state agencies fail . It took to the FBI to investigate civil rights activist murders when the local police showed no inclination to do so. It is also why FEMA is supposed to help with the aftermath of natural disasters when local systems break down. Brown showed zero competence in this area as he interfered more than helped. Not surprising given how it was just a patronage job to him, his emails revealed a massive lack of professionalism and people suffered and even died for it.

You can blame Chertoff, sure, but you can still put your sites on GWB as well. You'd think the guy who saw his Dad be just a one term Prez a dozen years before would have taught him a lesson. Daddy in 1992 had to scramble after FEMA and other agencies showed massive incompetence there as well, although the situation was not as 'floody' as with Katrina. Bush barely won Florida only after essentially throwing tons of money at the state.
 
kookbreaker said:
Maybe, but also claiming that the people who were stuck in NO 'shouldn't have been there' is quite the straw target as well. No evacuation is ever perfect, even with the threat of arrests there were still folks on the barrier islands of New Jersey when Sandy hit. Given that a large percentage of NO residents were poorer and had fewer resources than the barrier island crowd it is not a surprise. I find the whole 'They shouldn'a been dere' attitude to be victim blaming at its worst.

Now keep in mind that one of the reason for Federal agencies is to help or enforce when the state agencies fail . It took to the FBI to investigate civil rights activist murders when the local police showed no inclination to do so. It is also why FEMA is supposed to help with the aftermath of natural disasters when local systems break down. Brown showed zero competence in this area as he interfered more than helped. Not surprising given how it was just a patronage job to him, his emails revealed a massive lack of professionalism and people suffered and even died for it.

You can blame Chertoff, sure, but you can still put your sites on GWB as well. You'd think the guy who saw his Dad be just a one term Prez a dozen years before would have taught him a lesson. Daddy in 1992 had to scramble after FEMA and other agencies showed massive incompetence there as well, although the situation was not as 'floody' as with Katrina. Bush barely won Florida only after essentially throwing tons of money at the state.
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Thanks. I wish I had framed the argument in this way. Though, to be fair, I had not meant for this to be an OP but that should simply be a lesson for me in the future.

FWIW: Katrina was the turning point in my political views and perhaps I'm a bit too jaded and emotional over the subject. I'll concede that. I understand how others saw my post and subsequent responses as unreasonably placing all of the blame on the Bush admin.
 
When your very own quoted sources dispute your argument, you can't complain someone is off topic when they call you on it.
 
RandFan said:
wiki provided for information purposes. Links are provided in the pull quote and foot noted.
Originally Posted by wiki
It has been stated in the evacuation order that, beginning at noon on August 28 and running for several hours, all city buses were redeployed to shuttle local residents to, "refuges of last resort," designated in advance, including the Louisiana Superdome.[6] They also said that the state had prepositioned enough food and water to supply 15,000 citizens with supplies for three days, the anticipated waiting period before FEMA would arrive in force and provide supplies for those still in the city.[6] Later, it was found that FEMA had provided these supplies, but that FEMA Director Michael D. Brown was greatly surprised by the much larger numbers of people who turned up seeking refuge and that the first wave of supplies were quickly depleted.[6] The large numbers were a direct result of the insufficient mobilization and evacuation before Katrina's arrival, primarily due to city and state resistance to issuing an evacuation order and risk "crying wolf" and losing face should the hurricane had left the path of model prediction. Had contra-flow on highways been initiated sooner and more buses begun evacuating families (including the idle school buses that were not used at all) the numbers of stranded New Orleans occupants would have been significantly less making the initial wave of FEMA supplies adequate and even excessive.
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Are you kidding me? Seriously? It was at the top of the bloody list. How on Earth could Brown miscalculate so badly? Oh wait, while it was his job description he wasn't chosen for his abilities.
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You reposted this several times.
 
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