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Split Thread Michael Brown and Katrina

Overtopping happens when the storm surge brings the water level above the top of the levee. Water pours over the levee and gets into the city, where it remains until it is either pumped out or is absorbed into the ground (or evaporates). This can cause a lot of damage, but it is not catastrophic. New Orleans has huge pumps which presumably are used to pump out rain water, so a little bit of overtopping could probably be accommodated rather easily (although any roads or houses near the levees would be waterlogged). A breach means that the levee literally falls apart in a spot, which then widens as water rushes in. This results in the water level inside the city equalizing with the sea level outside within a matter of hours. You're probably talking at least 1,000 times more water in a breach than an overtopping. On top of that, it's impossible to pump the water out until the breach is repaired.

ETA: To answer your other questions, I think that nobody thought a breach was going to happen. It really shouldn't have. The levee was supposed to withstand a Category 4 hurricane, and I think Katrina was only Category 3 when it hit New Orleans.

ETAM: The wiki link.

I'm at a loss.

FEMA placed a hurricane hit on NO as one of it's most pressing concerns. Yes or no?
Katrina attained Category 5 status on the morning of August 28 (it was not predicted to decrease).

Given these facts I don't understand your argument.

We got lucky when the hurricane lost force.
We got unlucky when the levee's breached.
No harm no foul.

AIU, the Levees were built for a cat 3 hurricane but they were not properly maintained.

Army Corps Is Faulted on New Orleans Levees

An organization of civil engineers yesterday questioned the soundness of large portions of New Orleans's levee system, warning that the city's federally designed flood walls were not built to standards stringent enough to protect a large city.

The group faulted the agency responsible for the levees, the Army Corps of Engineers, for adopting safety standards that were "too close to the margin" to protect human life. It also called for an urgent reexamination of the entire levee system, saying there are no assurances that the miles of concrete "I-walls" in New Orleans will hold up against even a moderate hurricane.
 
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Even so, there have been plenty of complaints about the job FEMA has done in the aftermath of Sandy. You just don't see the media reporting them as prominently. In part it's due to partisan bias; and in part it's due to the media having nothing as gripping as 20,000 people stranded in the Superdome without working plumbing.
That's not a valid news story? In any event, I guess it's something for Bush and FEMA to be proud of. Along with of course, 1,800 people who died. Why would the news cover that? People were stranded, suffering and dying waiting for help. Why should the news cover that? Doctors had to choose who were to live and who were to die.
 
That's not a valid news story? In any event, I guess it's something for Bush and FEMA to be proud of. Along with of course, 1,800 people who died. Why would the news cover that? People were stranded, suffering and dying waiting for help. Why should the news cover that? Doctors had to choose who were to live and who were to die.

What? Really? I never heard that. Perhaps you've got Katrina confused with Obamacare?
 
As for why George Bush didn't defend himself? Dunno. Maybe he thought it was unseemly to be pointing fingers during a time of crisis. And when the crisis was over, it was too late to change people's minds.
Did Bush or FEMA make ANY preparations at all?

Did they preposition water and food?

Did they preposition transportation?

President Obama outlined the steps being taken by federal emergency responders.

Even before the storm hit, FEMA and other groups were able to preposition supplies like water, food, and power generators. Now more than 2,000 FEMA personnel are on the ground in the state, and the President promised that the recovery effort would continue.
Did the law preclude this prior to Katrina?
 
Did Bush or FEMA make ANY preparations at all?

Did they preposition water and food?

Did they preposition transportation?

Did the law preclude this prior to Katrina?

wiki provided for information purposes. Links are provided in the pull quote and foot noted.

wiki said:
It has been stated in the evacuation order that, beginning at noon on August 28 and running for several hours, all city buses were redeployed to shuttle local residents to, "refuges of last resort," designated in advance, including the Louisiana Superdome.[6] They also said that the state had prepositioned enough food and water to supply 15,000 citizens with supplies for three days, the anticipated waiting period before FEMA would arrive in force and provide supplies for those still in the city.[6] Later, it was found that FEMA had provided these supplies, but that FEMA Director Michael D. Brown was greatly surprised by the much larger numbers of people who turned up seeking refuge and that the first wave of supplies were quickly depleted.[6] The large numbers were a direct result of the insufficient mobilization and evacuation before Katrina's arrival, primarily due to city and state resistance to issuing an evacuation order and risk "crying wolf" and losing face should the hurricane had left the path of model prediction. Had contra-flow on highways been initiated sooner and more buses begun evacuating families (including the idle school buses that were not used at all) the numbers of stranded New Orleans occupants would have been significantly less making the initial wave of FEMA supplies adequate and even excessive.

Are you kidding me? Seriously? It was at the top of the bloody list. How on Earth could Brown miscalculate so badly? Oh wait, while it was his job description he wasn't chosen for his abilities.
 
I can find little evidence of competency.

Please, by all means, if you have evidence that FEMA did anything virtuous, lovely or of good report (to quote St. Paul), let me know.

Federal government response

President Bush signed a $10.5 billion relief package within four days of the hurricane,[7] and ordered 7,200 active-duty troops to assist with relief efforts.[8] However, some members of the United States Congress charged that the relief efforts were slow because most of the affected areas were poor.[9] There was also concern that many National Guard units were short staffed in surrounding states because some units were deployed overseas and local recruiting efforts in schools and the community had been hampered making reserves less than ideal.[10]

Due to the slow response to the hurricane, New Orleans's top emergency management official called the effort a "national disgrace" and questioned when reinforcements would actually reach the increasingly desperate city.[11] New Orleans's emergency operations chief Terry Ebbert blamed the inadequate response on the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA). "This is not a FEMA operation. I haven't seen a single FEMA guy", he said. "FEMA has been here three days, yet there is no command and control. We can send massive amounts of aid to tsunami victims, but we can't bail out the city of New Orleans."[11]

In the early morning of September 2 mayor Ray Nagin expressed his frustration at what he claimed were insufficient reinforcements provided by the President and federal authorities.[12][13]

However, many police, fire and EMS organizations from outside the affected areas were reportedly hindered or otherwise slowed in their efforts to send help and assistance to the area. FEMA sent hundreds of firefighters who had volunteered to help rescue victims to Atlanta for 2 days of training classes on topics including sexual harassment and the history of FEMA.[14]

Official requests for help through the proper chains of command were not forthcoming due to local and state delays in engaging FEMA for federal assistance, even after approached by such authorities. Local police and other EMS workers found the situation traumatic; at least two officers committed suicide, and over 300 deserted the city after gang violence and "turf wars" erupted around the city.[15]

A report by the Appleseed Foundation, a public policy network, found that local entities (nonprofit and local government agencies) were far more flexible and responsive than the federal government or national organizations. The federal response was often constrained by lack of legal authority or by ill-suited eligibility and application requirements. In many instances, federal staff and national organizations did not seem to have the flexibility, training, and resources to meet demands on the ground."[16]
If this were a story about 4 Americans dying in an overseas mission then those deaths would be outrageous.
 
Did Bush or FEMA make ANY preparations at all?

Did they preposition water and food?

Did they preposition transportation?

Did the law preclude this prior to Katrina?


I'm not sure where you live, but, where I live, we don't rely on the federal government for life or death situations in the case of a natural disaster. You can blame George Bush all you want, and he's an easy target, but wow. The warnings about the hurricane were on local and national news, radio and TV, 24/7 for the days leading up to the landing of Katrina. Reasons for non evacuation were myriad, from a mistrust of government, physical lack of ability, and local government incompetence.

A thread blaming the FEMA director is intellectually flawed.
 

Sorry, but those stories have nothing to do with your claim that doctors had to choose who would live and who would die. You make it sound like they could only save one person if they withheld care from another. In reality, a controversial decision was made by a few doctors to euthanize patients who were already terminal and who wouldn't survive an evacuation.
 
I'm not sure where you live, but, where I live, we don't rely on the federal government for life or death situations in the case of a natural disaster. You can blame George Bush all you want, and he's an easy target, but wow. The warnings about the hurricane were on local and national news, radio and TV, 24/7 for the days leading up to the landing of Katrina. Reasons for non evacuation were myriad, from a mistrust of government, physical lack of ability, and local government incompetence.
I blame bush because he failed. Big time. Do citizens bear responsibility? Of course. Is this a reason to excuse government failure? No. That would be a fallacy.

A thread blaming the FEMA director is intellectually flawed.
That doesn't even make sense. Does govt have responsibility to see to the safety of citizens even when those citizens make bad decisions?

What about the patients who died in hospitals who COULDN'T be evacuated? What about them? Big deal?
 
"Primarily due to the city and state resistance to issuing an evacuation order." Well, that is certainly Michael Brown's fault.
 
wiki provided for information purposes. Links are provided in the pull quote and foot noted.



Are you kidding me? Seriously? It was at the top of the bloody list. How on Earth could Brown miscalculate so badly? Oh wait, while it was his job description he wasn't chosen for his abilities.

So, first you ask if FEMA prepositioned supplies. Then you answer your own question by finding out that they had indeed prepositioned enough supplies for 15,000 people for 3 days. Now you claim well, they did but they didn't preposition enough because they were incompetent (criminally negligent in fact!). Of course, if they had prepositioned supplies for 50,000 people for six days, and the levees weren't breached, you might have complained that FEMA wasted tons of resources.
 
I blame bush because he failed. Big time. Do citizens bear responsibility? Of course. Is this a reason to excuse government failure? No. That would be a fallacy.

That doesn't even make sense. Does govt have responsibility to see to the safety of citizens even when those citizens make bad decisions?

What about the patients who died in hospitals who COULDN'T be evacuated? What about them? Big deal?


WTF did George W Bush have to do with evacuating New Orleans ? :boggled:
 
Please, by all means, if you have evidence that FEMA did anything virtuous, lovely or of good report (to quote St. Paul), let me know.

If this were a story about 4 Americans dying in an overseas mission then those deaths would be outrageous.

It's nice to see you finally tie this back to the Benghazi thread which you tried to derail.
 
Sorry, but those stories have nothing to do with your claim that doctors had to choose who would live and who would die. You make it sound like they could only save one person if they withheld care from another. In reality, a controversial decision was made by a few doctors to euthanize patients who were already terminal and who wouldn't survive an evacuation.
Did the failure of the Bush admin force doctors to decide whether or not to euthanize patients? Yes or no? Were those doctors forced to make life and death decisions that would expose them to criminal charges?

YES. That's what I meant. That's what I said.

Medical and Ethical Questions Raised on Deaths of Critically Ill Patients

BTW: Critically Ill does not mean "will die".

Critically ill patients are defined as those patients who are at high risk for actual or potential life-threatening health problems. The more critically ill the patient is, the more likely he or she is to be highly vulnerable, unstable and complex, thereby requiring intense and vigilant nursing care.
 
WTF did George W Bush have to do with evacuating New Orleans ?
He hired the idiot Brown. He was told by Brown that FEMA was not prepared. Bush did nothing.

THAT'S HOW.

"The buck stops here" is a phrase that was popularized by U.S. President Harry S. Truman, who kept a sign with that phrase on his desk in the Oval Office. The phrase refers to the fact that the President has to make the decisions and accept the ultimate responsibility for those decisions.
 
"Primarily due to the city and state resistance to issuing an evacuation order." Well, that is certainly Michael Brown's fault.
That did not prevent Brown from doing his job and prepositioning sufficient food and resources to help in the event the order was given.
 
So, first you ask if FEMA prepositioned supplies.
Yes, I did. And?

Then you answer your own question by finding out that they had indeed prepositioned enough supplies for 15,000 people for 3 days.
Yes, I did, and?

Now you claim well, they did but they didn't preposition enough because they were incompetent (criminally negligent in fact!). Of course, if they had prepositioned supplies for 50,000 people for six days, and the levees weren't breached, you might have complained that FEMA wasted tons of resources.
A hurican hit on NO was at the top of the FEMA list. There would have been no need to complain.
 
By the way, here's a video of water overtopping levees in New Orleans during Hurricane Gustav in 2008. I think you can see how things might be much worse if there was an actual breach.

 
He hired the idiot Brown. He was told by Brown that FEMA was not prepared. Bush did nothing.

THAT'S HOW.

"The buck stops here" is a phrase that was popularized by U.S. President Harry S. Truman, who kept a sign with that phrase on his desk in the Oval Office. The phrase refers to the fact that the President has to make the decisions and accept the ultimate responsibility for those decisions.

On Obama's desk there is a sign that reads "The buck stops at Youtube."
 

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