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MGM UK

The only criteria specified by Sadhatter is that it is elective surgery on someone who can't give consent.

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Elective, a birth defect by definition is something that needs to be corrected.

You are essentially asking me how I can be against shooting random people but for self defense using firearms. And the answer is the same, because they are opposites.
 
Parental consent suffices as it does in countless other decisions made on behalf of the infant.

US law on 'The surgical modification of female infants' genitalia for non-medical reasons' (aka as FGM) does not allow for "parental consent" as a justification for such procedures.

I made this point before and you seem to have missed it. Why would boys be different in this respect?
 
And yet parental consent wouldn't suffice if a deaf couple wanted to eliminate the hearing of their child (to fit into their deaf culture), or if they wanted to remove their child's testicles (to eliminate the possibility of testicular cancer, perhaps because of a strong family history of same), or any number of other procedures with at best possible medical or cultural benefits.

I disagree that circumcision is comparable to rendering an infant deaf or to castration.

Minor possible benefits.

Reducing the likelihood of certain diseases is a real benefit.

No, thank you. Again, you can't seem to be bothered to get specific or address other very valid arguments (such as explaining why male circumcision is so very different from the more minor forms of "female circumcision").

I think your opinion of what constitutes a valid argument on this topic is very different from mine.

I think if someone wants to make an argument involving the minor forms of female circumcision (most likely based on a conflation fallacy) then they should do it.

That makes your attempts to increase the burden of proof for the arguments against your very weak ones (e.g., paraphrased, "I'm fine with my circumcision") unreasonable.

I will continue to point out the obvious flaws I see in the arguments presented to me. If you see that as "trying to increase the burden of proof", then that's just something you need to deal with.

This is particularly true since I specifically mentioned preemptive appendectomy, which is not generally considered a reasonable medical procedure despite the fact that it too would prevent [far more dangerous] infections in an allegedly mostly useless part of the human body.

Is anyone advocating preventive appendectomies for infants?

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Is anyone advocating preventive appendectomies for infants?

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No, is anyone advocating preventive circumcision in infant boys? Yes. Is anyone able to give a valid reason? No. Is anyone advocating FGM? Yes. Is anyone able to give a valid reason? No.
 
No, is anyone advocating preventive circumcision in infant boys? Yes. Is anyone able to give a valid reason? No. Is anyone advocating FGM? Yes. Is anyone able to give a valid reason? No.
*sings*

One of these things is not like the others...

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I disagree that circumcision is comparable to rendering an infant deaf or to castration.
As far as I can tell, you don't find male circumcision comparable to anything. It's so unique and special that tradition is enough to justify it even in the face of the reality that it's of little to no medical use and, in fact, likely results in lessened sexual enjoyment, not to mention the potential undesirable outcomes of botched circumcisions, in both cosmetic and functional terms.
 
So a foreskin is a defect that needs to be corrected? If you have evidence of this I'd change my position.

Rule of so strikes again! Straw-man argument is filled with straw and does not need a response.

Personally I thought that it was a normal functional part of the anatomy.

Yep, normally functioning, just like the rest of the skin.

You keep comparing cosmetic surgery with nessecary surgery,

Because they are both surgery.



I'm all about nessecary surgery, it's modifying children's bodies for no valid medical reason I'm against.

Then you will be happy to know that there are valid medical reasons one might choose circumcision for their boy, and if they are not strong enough for you to choose that for your son, you are under no obligation to do so. At the same time, other people may find that their cultural or religious heritage might sway them to make a choice you would not approve of, but that's the nature of living in a free society.

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US law on 'The surgical modification of female infants' genitalia for non-medical reasons' (aka as FGM) does not allow for "parental consent" as a justification for such procedures.

I made this point before and you seem to have missed it. Why would boys be different in this respect?

Many laws are inconsistent with other laws, but that's not something I need to reconcile any more than you need to reconcile why we can't do female circumcision when we can do male circumcision.



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At the same time, other people may find that their cultural or religious heritage might sway them to make a choice you would not approve of, but that's the nature of living in a free society.

For the fourth time ... US law doesn't allow that line of argument as a defence in the case of non-medically indicated alterations to the genitals of girls. Why should boys be different, legally speaking?

I'm beginning to suspect, by now, that Mycroft has me on ignore, such is his determination to ignore this very simple point.
 
No, is anyone advocating preventive circumcision in infant boys? Yes. Is anyone able to give a valid reason? No.

That is not correct, as there are minor health benefits to circumcision. They may not be significant enough for you to choose circumcision for your son, but other people will certainly come to different conclusions.

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Mycroft's "argument" simple boils down to "if a parent wants to do it they should be able to do so". And that is it.
 
I don't agree that your conclusion follows from your premise.

Do you believe that if female circumcision were limited to "nicking", and never included anything else such as cutting away the labia or clitoris, that it still would be called female genital mutilation?

Nicking is less than circumcision. Removal of the clitoral hood is probably the closest FGM to male circumcision and then there are forms I think we'd all agree are much worse. So one lesser (including a host of variants) one about the same and some worse, but all viewed as injuries caused for no medical reason and therefore illegal. And yet it's fine for boys due to religious and social reasons (both factors declared immaterial when it comes to equivalent or even lesser FGM) and all people can come up with apart from that is a desperate, post hoc (by several thousand years) attempt to find some vague, possible medical benefit - that can be equally achieved by basic hygiene.

I get that you're fine with it, it isn't that big a deal in most cases but can't you use your critical thinking skills to step away from your own personal experience and see that 'Well it usually doesn't cause any lasting trauma but it is pretty pointless so let's stop doing it'.

You seem to reject analogies but how about say a custom had grown up to remove babies fingernails? Started as a religious, tribal thing but hey, dirt can get stuck under them and if you don't clean it out it could get infected or, even more likely, you may suck your fingers and the germs will get inside you. Much easier to keep your fingers clean with no nails and you've never really missed them, after all, your hands still work fine. Then you find out that huge numbers of people don't rip their babies fingernails out and they all seem to get on fine. Wouldn't you draw the logical conclusion that it's a bit pointless and even, dare I say it, barbaric?
 
That is not correct, as there are minor health benefits to circumcision. They may not be significant enough for you to choose circumcision for your son, but other people will certainly come to different conclusions.

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I'd correct that to 'It is purported that there are minor health benefits - usually by people with a vested interest or from a society heavily inculcated in the practice'.

If it was conclusively shown that on balance it's a pointless or even bad thing, would you change your mind?
 
Mycroft's "argument" simple boils down to "if a parent wants to do it they should be able to do so". And that is it.
That's a pretty accurate summation of the conclusion to my arguments, and it happens to be the conclusion the AMA agrees with.

The reasons I've come to that conclusion are:

1) It's a low risk procedure.

2)It does have some health benefits.

3)Inflammatory language equating it to mutilation, human sacrifice, female genital mutilation, chopping off hands, infant appendectomy and so on are hyperbole poorly supported by evidence.

4)Very little or weak evidence regarding decreased sexual ability balanced by other studies suggesting improved sexual performance.

Honestly I don't think it's a very important issue. I think a rational person could look at the science and go either way. I think those at both extremes of the issue, both radically pro or anti-circumcision are kooks.

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For the fourth time ... US law doesn't allow that line of argument as a defence in the case of non-medically indicated alterations to the genitals of girls. Why should boys be different, legally speaking?

I'm beginning to suspect, by now, that Mycroft has me on ignore, such is his determination to ignore this very simple point.
I believe I just answered that in post #250?

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That's a pretty accurate summation of the conclusion to my arguments, and it happens to be the conclusion the AMA agrees with.

The reasons I've come to that conclusion are:

1) It's a low risk procedure.

2)It does have some health benefits.

3)Inflammatory language equating it to mutilation, human sacrifice, female genital mutilation, chopping off hands, infant appendectomy and so on are hyperbole poorly supported by evidence.

4)Very little or weak evidence regarding decreased sexual ability balanced by other studies suggesting improved sexual performance.

Honestly I don't think it's a very important issue. I think a rational person could look at the science and go either way. I think those at both extremes of the issue, both radically pro or anti-circumcision are kooks.

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Care to link these studies so I can dismiss them without consideration?

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I believe I just answered that in post #250?

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No, you sidestepped it.

Do you think parents should have the right to have FGM performed on their daughters?

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Nicking is less than circumcision. Removal of the clitoral hood is probably the closest FGM to male circumcision

I agree with that. I'm not aware of any group of people who do remove part of the clitoral hood, but if they did that would be a close analogy for circumcision.

and then there are forms I think we'd all agree are much worse.

Practices that include cutting off the outer labia and/or removal of the visible clitoris. Sometimes even followed by sewing the vaginal opening closed. Often done with crude instruments such as razor blades or broken glass by people, often family, who are not medically trained.

And the worst part? Often done from late childhood to early puberty so the woman has a trauma that will stay with her for the rest of her life. Imagine a girl being held down, screaming, by several people while an elder digs her clitoris out with a razor blade?

The purpose? To sexually cripple the woman. They think it makes her more pure, less likely to be promiscuous, and more likely to stay with her husband instead of being attracted to another man.

So one lesser (including a host of variants) one about the same and some worse, but all viewed as injuries caused for no medical reason and therefore illegal.

This fallacy is called "conflation".

You lump circumcision with female genital mutilation because you do see a correlation with the absolute mildest form of FGM, and then you pretend that it’s just a coincidence that it’s now grouped with these really horrific practices.

It’s fallacious because circumcising a boy, cutting a bit of skin from the end of his penis, is absolutely nothing like holding down a screaming pre-teen so you can cut off her labia then sew it up.

Equating these things is fundamentally dishonest and does nothing to inform the debate.

I get that you're fine with it, it isn't that big a deal in most cases but can't you use your critical thinking skills to step away from your own personal experience and see that 'Well it usually doesn't cause any lasting trauma but it is pretty pointless so let's stop doing it'.

Disagreement with you is not evidence that I haven’t used my critical thinking skills.

You seem to reject analogies but how about say a custom had grown up to remove babies fingernails? Started as a religious, tribal thing but hey, dirt can get stuck under them and if you don't clean it out it could get infected or, even more likely, you may suck your fingers and the germs will get inside you. Much easier to keep your fingers clean with no nails and you've never really missed them, after all, your hands still work fine. Then you find out that huge numbers of people don't rip their babies fingernails out and they all seem to get on fine. Wouldn't you draw the logical conclusion that it's a bit pointless and even, dare I say it, barbaric?

Actually not a bad analogy.
 
Elective, a birth defect by definition is something that needs to be corrected.

That is incorrect:

Google definition:

Birth defect: a physical or biochemical abnormality that is present at birth and that may be inherited or the result of environmental influence.

Another definition from a medical site: Birth defect: Any defect present in a baby at birth, irrespective of whether the defect is caused by a genetic factor or by prenatal events that are not genetic.

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=11042

You are essentially asking me how I can be against shooting random people but for self defense using firearms. And the answer is the same, because they are opposites.


I can't parse that into anything that makes sense, so...no?
 

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