Metatheory and the NIST report

[A W Smith]

Your suggestion is appropriate and would be fair enough if NIST would release the videos they took these stills from.

I do not see any bowing in any of the videos, other than just prior to collapse, that I have had access to. I have repeatedly asked people here if they know of any which do show it.

is it your assertion that the photos in the pdf document were retouched to show bowing of the columns ?

 

[Tony Szamboti]

Typical twoofer logic.
1. Video trumps reality, always
2. When your arguments fail under logic, change the subject or derail.
Repeat ad infinitum

No, video to support the claim for bowing occurring for minutes prior to collapse is the best evidence yet it isn't being used. Why?

Your ad-hominem "twoofer" is not particularly helpful to your argument. I could just as easily call those like you with opposing opinions "doofers" as a sort of take on dufus, but I don't.

 

[Corsair 115]

How about a genuine test to see if an initially slow moving short distance collapse would immediately pulverize the first things it struck.

You've left out something very important - the mass of the material moving that short distance. A ten gram weight dropped onto an egg from a centimetre above it is a very different thing from a ten kilogram weight dropped onto an egg from a centimetre above it.

 

[Gravy]

No, video to support the claim for bowing occurring for minutes prior to collapse is the best evidence yet it isn't being used. Why?

Your ad-hominem "twoofer" is not particularly helpful to your argument. I could just as easily call those like you with opposing opinions "doofers" as a sort of take on dufus, but I don't.

Second time: What happened to your FOIA request for the video? Was it denied? If so, what reasons were given?

 

[Tony Szamboti]

is it your assertion that the photos in the pdf document were retouched to show bowing of the columns ?

No, I believe the bowing occurred but only after the central core columns collapsed first.

I do not know that the times are correct on the photos and believe the stills could have been taken from video just as the collapse initiated. The photos are not the best evidence for perimeter column bowing occurring for minutes prior to collapse. The videos do exist so why aren't they used or released so we can compare the photos to them?

 

[Tony Szamboti]

You've left out something very important - the mass of the material moving that short distance. A ten gram weight dropped onto an egg from a centimetre above it is a very different thing from a ten kilogram weight dropped onto an egg from a centimetre above it.

I mentioned momentum which includes both mass and velocity. Take a look at an avalanche and you won't see a lot of dust in the air until it is further downslope. The towers released tremendous dust clouds immediately and while the mass was high it was initially a slow fall which does not produce heavy dust from solid objects. High velocity impacts are normally needed to generate heavy pulverization and dust.

 

[Gravy]

You've left out something very important - the mass of the material moving that short distance. A ten gram weight dropped onto an egg from a centimetre above it is a very different thing from a ten kilogram weight dropped onto an egg from a centimetre above it.

If you're suggesting that a hundred million pounds falling could pulverize drywall and insulation that was already pulverized by an airliner, well, that's just crazy talk, and is refuted by Moholy-Nagy's law of double-dipping.

 

[Corsair 115]

If that is smoke it turned real white real fast. It isn't smoke.

Wait, smoke only comes in one colour — black? Is that what you are saying?

 

[Tony Szamboti]

Wait, smoke only comes in one colour — black? Is that what you are saying?

I would like to see an example of lots of white smoke from office materials. What could have caused the white smoke pouring out of the tower at collapse initiation?

 

[Gravy]

No, I believe the bowing occurred but only after the central core columns collapsed first.

I do not know that the times are correct on the photos and believe the stills could have been taken from video just as the collapse initiated. The photos are not the best evidence for perimeter column bowing occurring for minutes prior to collapse. The videos do exist so why aren't they used or released so we can compare the photos to them?

Third time: What happened to your FOIA request for the video? Was it denied? If so, what reasons were given?

 

[Corsair 115]

ITake a look at an avalanche and you won't see a lot of dust in the air until it is further downslope.

Need I point out the very obvious fact that an avalanche is a completely different thing from a building collapse?

 

[R.Mackey]

If you're suggesting that a hundred million pounds falling could pulverize drywall and insulation that was already pulverized by an airliner, well, that's just crazy talk, and is refuted by Moholy-Nagy's law of double-dipping.

Don't forget the fires. Concrete spalls in heat. Gets all crunchy-like.

 

[Gravy]

High velocity impacts are normally needed to generate heavy pulverization and dust.

I must have high velocity hands, then, because I can crumble drywall, ceiling tiles, and SFRM with them. Who knew I had such hands? I should get them registered.

 

[A W Smith]

No, I believe the bowing occurred but only after the central core columns collapsed first.

I do not know that the times are correct on the photos and believe the stills could have been taken from video just as the collapse initiated. The photos are not the best evidence for perimeter column bowing occurring for minutes prior to collapse. The videos do exist so why aren't they used or released so we can compare the photos to them?

Ok you have established that YOU BELIEVE the bowing did occur and the photos have not been retouched.

Now take the next step. Compare the damage to the facade including smoke marks, visible flame progression, smoke development and cladding damage To videos you are familiar with but from a different (from the ground for instance) perspective. Find frames in the video that closely match that damage. Then you will have at the very least. An approximate time stamp.

 

[Gravy]

Don't forget the fires. Concrete spalls in heat. Gets all crunchy-like.

But since the floors were fourteen-foot thick high-strength reinforced concrete, over 4-inch steel plate, how much spalling, fracturing and pulverization could we really expect?

Wait...let me check those specs again....

 

[A W Smith]

I would like to see an example of lots of white smoke from office materials. What could have caused the white smoke pouring out of the tower at collapse initiation?

Lots of white out correction fluid

 

[R.Mackey]

Don't forget the 3" rebar on 4' centers.

OK, this thread has officially jumped the shark. I'm out of here until somebody with enough sense to be worth it appears with a valid question.

 

[Tony Szamboti]

Need I point out the very obvious fact that an avalanche is a completely different thing from a building collapse?

You are right. Someone above mentioned it when I discussed the immediate dust cloud and I shouldn't have assumed you agreed with that.

 

[Tony Szamboti]

Lots of white out correction fluid

A whole helluva a lot. Maybe Rudy Giuliani was storing it there for when he eventually got around to correcting the firefighter's radio problem.

 

[Corsair 115]

AMaybe Rudy Giuliani was storing it there for when he eventually got around to correcting the firefighter's radio problem.

I'm shocked — shocked! — to find out a politician paid lip service to actually fixing a problem.

It may have been in very bad form to have not addressed the FDNY radio issues, but politicians not fixing a problem is hardly a new event in the world of politics.