[Merged]LCFC Errors / Loose Change Final Cut

[Norseman]

For those interested, here is the entire transcript of what Rumsfeld said.

http://www.defenselink.mil/speeches/speech.aspx?speechid=430

He declared war on "Pentagon Bureaucracy".

Here is an articel from 2003 with a status on the problem:
Military waste under fire
$1 trillion missing -- Bush plan targets Pentagon accounting

Here is a good article by The News & Observer from february 12 2006 that gives an more recent update on the problem:
http://www.newsobserver.com/front/story/399475.html

From the article:

At the heart of the problem is what government accountants like to call the agency's "stovepiped" setup, a tangle of 4,150 different business operations. (Until 2004, the department said it had 2,200 varied systems, but last year it reported finding an additional 1,900.) It has 713 different human resources systems, for example.

Good luck wiping out all those systems with a single plane crash. And it would only turn the DOD's headache of keeping track of money and assest into a real full blown nightmare.

This is a good example of Truther's qoute mining something that has nothing to do with 9/11 at all.

 

[ref]

Here is an articel from 2003 with a status on the problem:
Military waste under fire
$1 trillion missing -- Bush plan targets Pentagon accounting

Here is a good article by The News & Observer from february 12 2006 that gives an more recent update on the problem:
http://www.newsobserver.com/front/story/399475.html

From the article:


Good luck wiping out all those systems with a single plane crash. And it would only turn the DOD's headache of keeping track of money and assest into a real full blown nightmare.

This is a good example of Truther's qoute mining something that has nothing to do with 9/11 at all.

Thanks for the links. Exactly the point, how could they wipe everything out with a single plane crash. Just like the claim with secret government papers in WTC 7. Just a simple demolition will take care of that!

 

[JAStewart]

I wonder if Dylan actually read the Nist report, or just took the quotes from what Mark said during the hardfire debate...

 

[SDC]

Yes, because everything around it seemed to disintegrate.. so is that normal or anomalous? Make up your mind.

Just a comment... "Anomalous" doesn't mean impossible. Anomalous things happen all the time.

Reminds me of the time I was translating (Polish to English) a Polish soldier's Holocaust survival story. Every step, every time he was not killed, seemed "anomalous." But each step was true. Like it says in the book of Job: "Only I am left alive to tell thee." That is, against all probabilities, something happened.

 

[chillzero]

Guys,
I think this could be an interesting thread, and could cover several CT claims. I would really hate to see it consigned to either Humour or AAH.

I'm issuing an early warning / gentle reminder due to a few of the posts, but the thread might be quickly set to moderated status if not kept civil and on topic. If we can keep it relevant, it could be a contender for a sticky, next to the other Loose Change threads.

 

[SDC]

Yes, that was only according to some estimates. It's all stated pretty clearly in the quote (and in LC:FC).

Thanks. Hope you don't feel that you've just debunked anything.

Rumsfeld's statement comes down to audit problems, not disappearing or stolen cash. Happens all the time in large organizations. If you get anywhere near 100% reconciled at the end of the fiscal year (I always like when we call it the FY, but the mods might misunderstand) you win the prize. Rumsfeld comments demonstrate amazingly sloppy procedures, which should never have been tolerated, but not thievery.

 

[Hyperviolet]

"Between September 2000 and June 2001, the FAA scrambled jets to intercept 67 times.

Intercepts are routine and usually happen within 10 minutes."

I wonder if Loose Change will cite a case.
No.

 

[ref]

And they get that 10 minute claim from David Ray Griffin, who in turn gets the 10 minute time from a PC simulation game documentation.

But an Air Traffic Control document put out in 1998 warned pilots that any airplanes persisting in unusual behavior "will likely find two [jet fighters] on their tail within 10 or so minutes."
http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20060405112622982

"ATC document" was in reality documentation for a PC simulation game called Air Traffic Control Center. And even that documentation speaks of incoming flights from overseas.

The U.S. military has their own network of radars looking over the U.S. borders, and out over the ocean (NORAD). They are tied into the FAA computer to be able to get information on incoming flights from overseas, but if they see a target over international waters headed toward the U.S., without flight plan information, they will call on the "shout" line to the appropriate Center sector for an ID. Sector 66 might get a call to ID a radar target, and if 66 has no datablock or other information on it, the military will usually scramble an intercept flight. Essentially always they turn out to be private pilots ("VFR") not talking to anybody, who stray too far outside the boundary, then get picked up on their way back in. But, procedures are procedures, and they will likely find two F-18's on their tail within 10 or so minutes.
[URL="http://www.xavius.com/080198.htm"][URL]http://www.xavius.com/080198.htm[/URL][/URL]

MikeW has debunked it here:
http://www.randi.org/forumlive/showp...55&postcount=7

 

[Undesired Walrus]

[Merged]LCFC Errors / Loose Change Final Cut: Act 1: Hijackers.

We are skeptics, this is an educational forum, and the threads are getting messy, so I think what we owe to each other and others who may visit here for questions is to answer, analyse and question each of the films claims.

I know there is a thread already devoted to the mistakes of the film, and lets continue with that, but this is more solid in each step as it were.

Therefore, I have started what I hope will be many instalments of us taking the points one by one, and who knows, maybe we will be led to the conclusion that there was an Inside Job. I feel this is an unlikely conclusion, but this is the last installment of Dylan's videos, so lets do this this.

Bin Laden denies responsibility

'No hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11'

Mohammed Atta leaves will inside luggage that will be destroyed

The passport found at the twin towers

Drinking, Drugs and porno a few nights before

ISI link

Training at military bases

Rented Apartment from FBI informant

================

Right, I'm not smart enough to refute them all, but indeed, I can, outweigh the 'evidence' that Dylan has presented, with evidence that he fails to mention.


#Ziad Jarrah sent a fairwell letter to his girlfriend in Germany, with the words 'You will see the results, and everybody will be happy'. He also mentions that they will 'meet again', and ends it with 'goodbye'. He phoned her on the morning of 9/11 at 5am and told her he loved her three times.

If I was Dylan, I should ask, in an unbiased documentary, 'Why was he saying fairwell'? Why did he mention 'the results'? Why did he tell her he loved her three times at 5am?' The timing fits with morning prayer.

#Osama Bin Laden has claimed responsibility far more times than Dylan lets on. He has recently attempted to reclaim himself as the 'spiritual leader' of Al Qeada in his latest televised address. He mentions the '19 men, who by the grace of God changed their (The US's) compass.'.

#We have, which Dylan never gives an explanation to, many hijackers all declaring their impending mission in statements recorded on camera. They all say they are giving themselves up for God's will.

#MikeW has uploaded these videos released by Al Qeada. I have not seen many of these before, and it is worth taking a look. http://911myths.com/index.php/Responsibility, Again, we have no reason to suggest these were faked.
#We have the voices of two pilots on United 93 screaming for their lives.

#We have Ziad Jarrah informing the people on the plane there is a bomb onboard. The passengers on the phones confirm this. We have no reason to suggest that this is faked.

#We know that Jarrah and Atta were at Al Qeada training camps.

I'll leave this section up to you.

 

[MarkyX]

Bin Laden denies responsibility


Easy one. The only "proof" of his denial were letters apparently written by him sent to Al-Jazeera. However, there is plenty of video evidence of him praising the hijackers, talking to them, and taking responsibility. An unconfirmed versus multiple videos? I'll bet on the latter.


'No hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11'


Chain of custody, as I have discussed before. What I find somewhat annoying about FC is they were trying to use footage in like a week or two after 9/11 to confirm that OBL didn't do it. No major investigation has been done and people, including the administration, were in the dark on what exactly happened. However, they were other reasons to go after OBL, such as the Embassy Bombings. The Taliban was merely trying to stall as long as possible because they were harboring a psycho.


Mohammed Atta leaves will inside luggage that will be destroyed


Which proves what exactly? Atta existed? Bombs were put in the towers? I never really understand why they try to bring up "evidence" that results to no conclusion.


The passport found at the twin towers


And, what does this prove? Interesting that Dylan still holds onto this claim, even after the fact he stole it from holocaust denier Carol Valentine.

The other ones require a bit more detail, but they all lead to the same idea: Poke "holes" and provide no narrative.

 

[Undesired Walrus]

I'm going to put this in this section as I felt the movie should have had Hani Hanjour in the hijackers bit. If somebody soon posts a new thread on Act 3 or whatever it is in, I will move it there.

Dylan returns to his flight instructor for Hani Hanjour, but maddeningly does not mention this very real and very important point.

"There's no doubt in my mind that once (Flight 77) got going, he could have pointed that plane at a building and hit it."

There is no quote mining here, nothing taken out of context. Just what he said. It doesn't prove that Hanjour was not a terrible pilot, but it shows that Dylan Avery is being dishonest and biased.

 

[Hyperviolet]

I'm just at the Pentagon section. Okay, same mistake as last edition.

"Those who believe a 757 did not hit, are fueled with the damage to the building..........
....... particularly the lack of damage from the wings or vertical stabilizers"

Loose Change misrepresents the damage by showing this image:

The water obscures the damage, when in reality, the wing damage was made on the lower floor, which cannot be seen due to the fire fighting operation.
As seen on the zoom out shot:

Real damage, including the lower floor:

That's dishonest.

 

[RedIbis]

There's obviously a need for a such a thread as this, but if I can make one sincere request.

When you address a specific point and then refute it with your own evidence, please provide the source.

I don't doubt for a second that there are errors in the film, so when conflicting evidence is presented, it has to be sourced.

 

[MikeW]

#Osama Bin Laden has claimed responsibility far more times than Dylan lets on. He has recently attempted to reclaim himself as the 'spiritual leader' of Al Qeada in his latest televised address. He mentions the '19 men, who by the grace of God changed their (The US's) compass.'.

Coincidentally, today I uploaded a complete section from the al Qaeda video "The Nineteen Martyrs", where the hijackers are individually named and praised. It's the top video on this page.

 

[Alt+F4]

The passport found at the twin towers

And, what does this prove? Interesting that Dylan still holds onto this claim, even after the fact he stole it from holocaust denier Carol Valentine.

I've always wondered what was the origin of this passport story. Does anyone know? If this story is true, where's the passport now?

 

[Undesired Walrus]

Again, this is about the hijackers so it may as well go here.

I do believe Dylan makes the catastrophic mistake of saying Saed al-Ghamdi was a trained Saudi fighter pilot. No if's, no buts.

I fear he may be mistaking him for the Saudi Airlines pilot also named Saeed al-Ghamdi, seeing that a name on the hijacker's list released by the FBI was his. CNN showed a picture of that Al-Ghamdi. It was likely his picture from a flying school in Florida he went to.

As far as I know, the hijacker Al-Ghamdi only fought in Chechnya on the ground. If I am wrong, I'd be interested to know.

Reference:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/09/23/widen23.xml

(Good idea RedIbis)

 

[Hyperviolet]

The passport found at the twin towers


And, what does this prove? Interesting that Dylan still holds onto this claim, even after the fact he stole it from holocaust denier Carol Valentine.

The other ones require a bit more detail, but they all lead to the same idea: Poke "holes" and provide no narrative.

Mail from the planes was also found.

On Oct. 12, it arrived inside a second envelope at Mrs. Snyder's modest white house on Main Street here, and the instant she took it out and saw it, she says, ''chills just went over me.'' It was singed and crumpled. A chunk was ripped out, giving the bottom of the envelope she had sent the look of a jagged skyline. Mrs. Snyder's lyrical script had blurred into the scorched paper. The stamp, depicting a World War II sailor embracing a woman welcoming him home, was intact.

Along with the letter was a note: ''To whom it may concern. This was found floating around the street in downtown New York. I am sorry if you suffered any loss in this tragedy. Sincerely, a friend in New York!''

Since then, Mrs. Snyder, a customer service representative at a grocery store, has discovered that she has one of only two pieces of mail known to have been recovered from the planes that crashed into the World Trade Center. At least one auction house has contacted her, saying she could sell the letter for tens of thousands of dollars.

From MikeW's 911Myths, i also found this picture:

 

[Dazed]

This is just for my own curiosity.

The obvious impact zone from that image seems, to me, to be here.



The angle at which these columns are bent outward away from the building seems strange though. What do you think?

 

[Undesired Walrus]

Coincidentally, today I uploaded a complete section from the al Qaeda video "The Nineteen Martyrs", where the hijackers are individually named and praised. It's the top video on this page.

Thanks Mike, I edited my first post with this video.

I have to hand it to them, Al Qeada have far better filmaking talents and emotional rhetoric than Loose Change and Dylan...

 

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

"Between September 2000 and June 2001, the FAA scrambled jets to intercept 67 times.

Intercepts are routine and usually happen within 10 minutes."

I wonder if Loose Change will cite a case.
No.

Of course not. Hit and run "facts" are their specialty. State it as fact, with no sources, and their minions will repeat it forever until it's "truish"