[Merged] Immortality & Bayesian Statistics

[pakeha]

- Once again, I suspect that you and I are on the same page. In addition, your expression of what I'm referring to may be the best I've heard...
- My claim is that we all have a sense (whether illusion or not) of a continuous core self whose features are constantly changing.

No, Jabba.
You're confusing "sense of core self" with memories.

 

[Garrette]

I have the sense of being jerked around by a puppeteer who doesn't quite know how to work the strings.

Perfect pith and nommed.

 

[Filippo Lippi]

I have the sense of being jerked around by a puppeteer who doesn't quite know how to work the strings.

Jabba reminds me of a really bad magician. We can all see the rabbit up his sleeve, but Jabba insists we can't because he needs to believe in magic.

 

[Jabba]

- So anyway, does anyone disagree that we have the sense of a continuous core self whose features are constantly changing?

- Apparently, most, if not all, of you agree -- though, for now, I'll drop the word "core," as it seems to confuse the issue.
- Whatever, this is the self that I am claiming is both real and immortal.

- Can you give me an appropriate source for believing that this self is an illusion?

 

[Garrette]

- Apparently, most, if not all, of you agree -- though, for now, I'll drop the word "core," as it seems to confuse the issue.
- Whatever, this is the self that I am claiming is both real and immortal.

- Can you give me an appropriate source for believing that this self is an illusion?

Wrong way round. Provide the source for believing it is not.

 

[pakeha]

- So anyway, does anyone disagree that we have the sense of a continuous core self whose features are constantly changing?

- Apparently, most, if not all, of you agree -- though, for now, I'll drop the word "core," as it seems to confuse the issue.
- Whatever, this is the self that I am claiming is both real and immortal.

- Can you give me an appropriate source for believing that this self is an illusion?

Self is another word for consciousness, correct me if I'm wrong.
Since consciousness is an emergent property of a living brain, why imagine that it's independent of the brain?

 

[John Jones]

- Apparently, most, if not all, of you agree -- though, for now, I'll drop the word "core," as it seems to confuse the issue.
- Whatever, this is the self that I am claiming is both real and immortal.

- Can you give me an appropriate source for believing that this self is an illusion?

Can you essentially prove immortality using Bayesian statistics?

 

[Garrette]

Self is another word for consciousness, correct me if I'm wrong.
Since consciousness is an emergent property of a living brain, why imagine that it's independent of the brain?

Jabba thinks there are two selfs, consciousness as an emergent property and this amorphous sense-of-self. More accurately, Jabba thinks there is a sense-of-self and is willing to pretend that he understands and accepts consciousness as an emergent property, but he is pretending that only as a rhetorical route around our objections.

 

[Slowvehicle]

- Apparently, most, if not all, of you agree -- though, for now, I'll drop the word "core," as it seems to confuse the issue.
- Whatever, this is the self that I am claiming is both real and immortal.

- Can you give me an appropriate source for believing that this self is an illusion?

Good Morning, Mr. Savage!

Again, I wonder why you are spending so much time policing the crowd to see who agrees, or disagrees, with you.

Instead of hoping you can skip past the parts of your "proof" that you can convince yourself anyone already agrees with, why not simply present your evidence?

Did you ever hear back form "Roger"?

Did you ever admit to him that you told him a lie about me, and bout others on the forum?

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

FWIW, I just went back 100 pages to page 43, and guess what the post from Jabba on that page was doing? Trying to define "self". This thread has literally not moved forwards at all in the last 100 pages.

 

[Mojo]

Since consciousness is an emergent property of a living brain, why imagine that it's independent of the brain?

Because if it isn't independent of the brain, it will cease to exist when the brain ceases to function, and Jabba doesn't want that to happen.

 

[godless dave]

- Apparently, most, if not all, of you agree -- though, for now, I'll drop the word "core," as it seems to confuse the issue.
- Whatever, this is the self that I am claiming is both real and immortal.

- Can you give me an appropriate source for believing that this self is an illusion?

This was my college textbook and I found it very readable. On the 3rd edition now, last updated in 2000.

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/brain-mind-and-behavior-floyd-e-bloom/1101827539?ean=9780716723899

 

[Loss Leader]

- Apparently, most, if not all, of you agree -- though, for now, I'll drop the word "core," as it seems to confuse the issue.
- Whatever, this is the self that I am claiming is both real and immortal.

- Can you give me an appropriate source for believing that this self is an illusion?

How very rude. This is your proof, your quest, your thread. It is up to you to prove your own terms. If you claim the sense of self it's more than an illusion, and that some core self remains the same throughout life, then you provide the proof.

 

[Giordano]

- Apparently, most, if not all, of you agree -- though, for now, I'll drop the word "core," as it seems to confuse the issue.
- Whatever, this is the self that I am claiming is both real and immortal.

- Can you give me an appropriate source for believing that this self is an illusion?

Just as predicted by us: a dishonest and inaccurate misstatement of all the posts presented here. First, everyone only excepted the idea of a "core self" as an illusion, and made this very clear in their posts. Now you drop the idea of "core", which was a crucial part of the explanation in most peoples' posts, and demand that we prove the other crucial part of most peoples' posts, that it is an illusion! Everyone here clearly disagreed with your current definition of "self" when you recently polled us, and you must know it. We don't have to prove a continuous core selff is an illusion; you made the claim and promised the proof: go ahead, prove it!

 

[Giordano]

- Apparently, most, if not all, of you agree -- though, for now, I'll drop the word "core," as it seems to confuse the issue.
- Whatever, this is the self that I am claiming is both real and immortal.

- Can you give me an appropriate source for believing that this self is an illusion?

Why not just post that "selves are just a illusion of the physical brain" and get most here to agree to that? Then you can drop the last 8 words because they seem to confuse the issue, add "are immortal" to further clarify it, and you've gotten everyone here to "agree" with your "proof."

I will repeat what others have asked. Why, if you have a mathematical proof, do you poll us for our opinion. Surely your proof doesn't depend on a poll?

Any evidence?

 

[PixyMisa]

- Apparently, most, if not all, of you agree -- though, for now, I'll drop the word "core," as it seems to confuse the issue.
- Whatever, this is the self that I am claiming is both real and immortal.

We know that. We've always known that.

But all you have done in more than a year is present that claim.

- Can you give me an appropriate source for believing that this self is an illusion?

http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/brain-and-cognitive-sciences/9-00-introduction-to-psychology-fall-2004/

This is MIT's Introduction to Psychology course. It's available free as a series of recorded lectures. It's brilliant. And you need to listen to the whole thing, because everything you think you know about brains, minds, and self is wrong.

If you don't have time to listen to these lectures, then you most certainly don't have time to persist with your argument.

 

[carlitos]

Can you give me an appropriate source for believing that this self is an illusion?

 

[PixyMisa]

Susan Blackmore addressing Jabba's notion of self:

 

[carlitos]

What if 6 was 9?

What if all the hippies cut off all their hair? I don't care. I don't care.

 

[Pixel42]

Susan Blackmore addressing Jabba's notion of self:

Fascinating talk, thanks very much for the link.