[Merged] Immortality & Bayesian Statistics

Status
Not open for further replies.
Akhenaten,
- I suspect that my iterations are infinite (in some sense...) and really just the physical reflection of a continuous consciousness.

Jabba, I think that you are confusing philosophy and science again. Unsupported assertions and strongly-held beliefs do not make a proper foundation for scientific discourse. This thread should not have been started in the SM&T section to begin with.
 
The possible combinations of a deck of cards is 52!. That means that if you shuffle a deck then you can be sure that no deck in the world has ever been in that order before. Now think about the possible combinations of cells in the brain. The identical brain theory is a non-starter. Sorry for bringing science into this discussion.

There is no identical brain theory under discussion. You're the first one to bring it up.
 
I see the posts that contained any meaningful analysis were deleted. Apparently someone doesn't want me to talk about the unique brain hypothesis.

The unique brain hypothesis, with Jabba's frog's eye viewpoint, is only the linchpin of Jabba's formula. He calls it the "scientific model". Might as well examine it, if you're going to spend all this time in this thread.

It's not like pulling 5 random cards off a deck, as per one of slowvehicle's fallacies. The expectation there is simply 5 random cards, which you'll see every time.

If a particular unique brain is the only unique brain that can bring sentience to your frog's eye, then you do NOT expect to see a random unique brain. You expect to see that particular unique brain (expectation=0.0000.....1 or 1/infinity, pick your poison), or nothing at all (expectation=0.999999....(or infinity:1))

If you see nothing at all, then there is nothing to worry about. Hypothesis supported. Problem is, you're not seeing nothing at all. You're looking at a probability (1) observation with a unique-brain expection of 0.0000.....1, or thereabouts.

The alternative to the unique brain explanation would be that a particular unique brain is NOT the only unique brain that can bring experienceable sentience to the frog's eye.

IOW humans are special.
 
Slowvehicle,
- OK.
- While my best guess is what I just suggested to Akhenaten, I would still consider infinite iterations -- without consciousness in between -- immortality in effect, because the period in between, in effect, wouldn't exist.
- But also, I'm happy to accept infinite iterations even if that can't be considered immortality, and I'll revise my claim accordingly.

Again, thanks for responding; again, I do not wish to seem "condescending"...

Please explain how you suspect that and emergent property of a particular brain can be said to share "identity" with multiple unconnected, unrelated, unexperienced, and unremembered iterations of an emergent property of different brains.

Seriously. What is it that you are claiming you "suspect" exists multiple unconnected times, independent of the neural system of which it is an emergent property?

How do they share "identity"?
 
There was no prediction, and need not be any prediction. There is an observaton of a bullet hole in a target placed by the unique brain assumption, and an expected likelihood of the hit implied by the unique brain assumption, which at this point no longer qualifies even as a hypothesis, particularly in view of the fact that no one even understands what it is, or pretends not to.

Which is convenient, because the goal all along has been to reject the unique brain assumption, leaving only the corollary, which I do not intend to interpret.

So whatever you think you've proved was based on an assumption I've rejected from the outset. You never even understood what was being questioned.

Your "target" requires prediction.

You are putting up your "target" after the fact.
 
IOW humans are special.

Yeah, there's special pleading mixed in with the argument from incredulity.

A grain of sand only exists because specific events happened in a specific order? No big deal.

A human brain only exists because specific events happened in a specific order? There can't possibly be a naturalistic explanation for that!
 
Sorry if I've missed it, but what is the "unique brain assumption", and how does it relate to immortality?

Looks to me like a version of the big number fallacy*.

*Make up lots of conditions for some thing then multiply all the numbers together and declare that the thing is impossible to happen naturally so ---god.

It's a perennial favorite of religious apologists.
 
dafydd,
- Keep in mind that I have never claimed that I could prove immortality -- I only claimed that I could essentially prove it.


No matter how many times you repeat this silly little weasely whatever-it-is I'm no closer to understanding the distinction.

Either you can or you can't prove whatever it is you're claiming.



- Above, I was trying to answer Akhenaten's question --
"Which bit of 'multiple iterations of the consciousness that you, personally, are experiencing now are not, in any way, "immortality"' is giving you the most trouble?"


Despite having a couple of cracks at answering it, it's obvious that you never understood the question in the first place.

All I was querying was why you thought replacing the word "multiple" with the word "infinite" would make any difference to the contention that reiterations of consciousness (ie. different consciousnesses) is not the same as immortality.



- I think that I used the word "suspect," and not something stronger, because multiple iterations minus any non-physical continuity is also a possibility...


Is "suspect" the same as "essentially prove"?
 
You say "nonsense", but then in the next sentence you imply that you wouldn't reject a hypothesis no matter how far askew the observed data is from the hypothetical expected frequencies, as long as the skew is mathematically remotely possible.



It's not impossible for you to win the lottery, and you won't be surprised if you do. Presumably you are investing all available funds in lottery tickets.

Because the possibility of you winning the lottery cannot be mathematically eliminated. Therefore, your course to immense wealth is clear. And surprisingly easy. But not surprising to you.



Of course you do. But even if I did prove you wrong again, it would still be groundhog day again tomorrow.

The pattern is clear.

So far I've seen a lot of bold bluster but no real proof.

The pattern is clear.
 
Jabba, I think that you are confusing philosophy and science again. Unsupported assertions and strongly-held beliefs do not make a proper foundation for scientific discourse. This thread should not have been started in the SM&T section to begin with.


I think it was an attempt to put some distance between this thread and the Tablecloth of Turin thread which, as it happens, shouldn't have been started in R&P.
 
I'm sure every you-identified clown in the thread knows that, for whatever you think it's worth. But you're still not going to win the lottery. Forget it. Not happening. Civilization is more likely to collapse first.

That's the practical difference.

So if someone wins the lottery, we can conclude the game must be rigged, because it's more likely for civilization to collapse than for someone to win? Is that what you're saying?
 
Which is convenient, because the goal all along has been to reject the unique brain assumption, leaving only the corollary, which I do not intend to interpret.
If you've rejected the assumption, then how have you not rejected its corollary?
So whatever you think you've proved was based on an assumption I've rejected from the outset. You never even understood what was being questioned.

You're the one that introduced the assumption in the first place, as far as I can see (though the fact that you refuse to explain it nor why it is relevant makes it hard to be sure).
 
So if someone wins the lottery, we can conclude the game must be rigged, because it's more likely for civilization to collapse than for someone to win? Is that what you're saying?

:wwt

I think we've been through this before, Dave. But tell me again. At what level of improbability (P-value) would you reject a hypothesis? Barring an impossible observation, there is a non-zero chance that the hypothesis could still be true at any P-value.

As to the fatal flaw in your analogy:

The purpose of probability is to deal with incomplete knowledge.

Where is the incomplete knowledge in your analogy? Our knowledge of the lottery is complete. There is no need to test any hypothesis about how someone won the lottery. We know how someone won the lottery.

You, however, can offer no explanation why that particular brain is mysteriously assigned to be 'you'. It just is. A brain tautologically happens to have lit up your jungle. That's all you know about it. It's not even the identical brain that originally lit up your jungle shortly after your birth.

The unique brain assumption is just that - an assumption. So why shouldn't the unique brain assumption be tested, and if it flunks the test, why shouldn't the corollary be favored?

Should you choose to test the offending assumption, why shouldn't you test it from the viewpoint that provides the information to test it, instead of flapping around up in the sky chirping that you don't see any reason to question the assumption from up there, when in fact what you don't see is anything at all. Because you're in the wrong place.

The corollary to the unique brain assumption is no less counterintuitive, doesn't flunk the observational test, and therefore should be favored.
 
Last edited:
If you've rejected the assumption, then how have you not rejected its corollary?

By "corollary", I mean what follows if the unique brain assumption is not true. Actually it's the corollary to the rejection of the unique brain assumption.
 
The unique brain assumption is just that - an assumption. So why shouldn't the unique brain assumption be tested, and if it flunks the test, why shouldn't the corollary be favored?

You keep using that word, but I rather suspect it's not the one you want.
 
Your "target" requires prediction.

You are putting up your "target" after the fact.

Wrong again. As I explained, the unique brain assumption places the target. If you don't see how, you don't see how.

Did I mention I reject the unique brain assumption? Yes, I believe I did. In the post you responded to, in fact.
 
Wrong again. As I explained, the unique brain assumption places the target. If you don't see how, you don't see how.

Did I mention I reject the unique brain assumption? Yes, I believe I did. In the post you responded to, in fact.

Wrong again.

If you start, as you are, with what the bullet hit, you are trying to get away with the Texas Sharpshooter--even if you do not understand that (or pretend not to see it for rhetorical advantage).

Which has...what...to do with immortality, or the OP?
 
You're the one that introduced the assumption in the first place, as far as I can see (though the fact that you refuse to explain it nor why it is relevant makes it hard to be sure).

You asked for an explanation. You got it. Now you want another, and then you'll want another, and then another. I know the stupid little game.

It's very simple. The assumption is that there is only one unique, dauntingly complex biological organization, occurring at a unique set of time coordinates, in a unique set of spacial coordinates, that can ever be 'you'.

It is not simply that every brain is different. It's that only one of them can ever be 'you'. If the prerequisite one ever happens to occur.

That's the unique brain assumption. If you don't get it, you don't get it. If you don't agree with it, you don't agree with it. If you want another explanation which you will immediately proceed to willfully misinterpret, I'll link you to A.L.I.C.E.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom