[Merged] Immortality & Bayesian Statistics

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Slowvehicle,
- "Rich," by itself, is not condescending; "Oh Rich" is. I wasn't complaining about "Rich"; I was complaining about "Oh Rich."

T'oogi FooToo:

I am curious as to how you find a politely humorous, if somewhat colloquial, interjection often used to attract attention (particularly in a situation where it is patent one is being intentionally, continually, and disrespectfully ignored), to be "condescending".

Perhaps the aphorism often addressed to "Buttercup" might be helpful...

When do you intend to begin the slightest head-fake toward addressing how your undemonstrated "shared consciousness" and your superstitions about "reincarnation" constitute "essentially proving immortality"?
 
- I currently have about 50 unanswered or insufficiently answered specific questions and objections to answer. Fortunately, I've been able to dump them into 3 "general" buckets: 1) definitions and clarifications, 2) effective debate and 3) the evidence and logic of my claim... I might need to rename, or further divide the buckets, but maybe this division will help.
- The bucket most needing my attention is surely #3 -- the evidence and logic of my claim.

- So at this point my claim is 1) that the opinion that my "soul" (or "self," or "personal consciousness") has but one, finite, life to live is wrong, 2) that I can essentially prove that it's wrong (by using Bayesian statistics) and 3) that by essentially proving it to be wrong, I will essentially prove that I am immortal.

- The following is the formula I'm using to support my first claim.
- P(X|me) = P(Me|X)*P(X|k)/(P(Me|X)*P(X|k)+P(Me|non-X)*P(non-X|k))

- "X" is the opinion above; "non-X" is the complement of "X." "Immortality," here, includes existing periodically (reincarnation) as well as existing continuously -- or some sort of combination of the two. "Me" is my current existence. "k" is "background knowledge."

- Clearly, I have revised my claims since beginning our discussion. I did that because you guys have, in fact, pointed out some significant weaknesses in my original claims... I'll try to explain these revisions below.

1) I'm really claiming to essentially prove that, somehow, X is incorrect.
2) I believe that essentially proving X to be incorrect is tantamount to essentially proving that my existence is either periodic, or continuous, or a combination of both (being a combination would just mean that there is more than one form of consciousness).
3) I assume that if I am immortal -- and if you guys are, in fact, conscious -- you guys are immortal as well.

- Now, I need to insert the appropriate numbers, and then show that they make sense.

- P(X|me) = (1/∞*.99)/(1/∞*.99+.5*.01)

1) I've begun trying to support my use of "1/∞" for the likelihood of my current existence, given X; I'll keep working on that.
2) I don't think that I actually need to use "∞" in the formula -- an unimaginably large number would be sufficient. I'll also work on explaining and supporting that.
3) I don't think that our background knowledge should translate to anywhere near a prior probability of 99% for X, but if the rest of my logic holds, I can be generous about this number.
4) The likelihood of me existing given non-X is especially difficult to nail down -- but, if the rest of my logic holds, this number hardly matters.
5) The prior probability of non-X is just the complement of the prior probability of X.

- I'll start with providing my evidence and logic for #1 unless someone wants me to start elsewhere.
 
Jabba,

Haven't you stated all this before?

Personally I believe I understand what your argument is and I believe I share that understanding with the majority of the forum. I don't think a restatement of it will help.

Could you clarify why the "special snowflake" argument doesn't apply here?

Tom
 
Jabba,
...
Could you clarify why the "special snowflake" argument doesn't apply here?

Tom
Tom,
- I can't find a good description of the "special snowflake" argument...
 
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- I currently have about 50 unanswered or insufficiently answered specific questions and objections to answer.


I'm somewhat amazed that you can't see that the above constitutes an acknowledgement that the longer this thread continues, the closer you're getting to completely unexplaining your original claim.

Things were clearer before you started.

You're going backwards, Jabba.



Fortunately, I've been able to dump them into 3 "general" buckets: 1) definitions and clarifications, 2) effective debate and 3) the evidence and logic of my claim... I might need to rename, or further divide the buckets, but maybe this division will help.


When I wrote the following I was mainly trying to be humourous, but I knew in the back of my mind that you'd eventually end up doing it:


Never mind. Just keep posting more lists.

In fact, I'd say we're long overdue for a list of all the lists that you've made.



- The bucket most needing my attention is surely #3 -- the evidence and logic of my claim.


Why not split that into two sub-buckets - one for the evidence and one for the logic. Then set about presenting everything that's in the first sub-bucket (I'd recommend a sub-sub-bucket approach here).

Once all the evidence is on the table I'm fairly sure the discussion of the logic explaining it will proceed much more smoothly.


And while we're on the subject of sub-buckets - you really need to split your #1 bucket into two sub-buckets since it's quite apparent that "Definitions" and "Clarifications in the Jabbaverse are as unalike as matter and antimatter. The last thing we need is a core breach.


Further, you might just as well discard bucket #2 (effective debate). It's completely empty.



- So at this point my claim is 1) that the opinion that my "soul" (or "self," or "personal consciousness") has but one, finite, life to live is wrong,


Yes, we know. It's morphed a little since the OP but it's still essentially just as silly.



2) that I can essentially prove that it's wrong (by using Bayesian statistics) and 3) that by essentially proving it to be wrong, I will essentially prove that I am immortal.


Since you've already spent almost 14 months and over 300 posts in your effort to do this with the only signs of any progress so far indicating movement backwards, I'd say you essentially have a snowball's chance in hell of ever succeeding.



<jabberish>

1) I'm really claiming to essentially prove that, somehow, X is incorrect.


No matter how many times you tell us what your claim is it remains, essentially, bollocks.



2) I believe that essentially proving X to be incorrect is tantamount to essentially proving that my existence is either periodic, or continuous, or a combination of both (being a combination would just mean that there is more than one form of consciousness).


BrokenRecord.jpg



3) I assume that if I am immortal -- and if you guys are, in fact, conscious -- you guys are immortal as well.


Your assumption is conditional on your readership being conscious?

Words fail me.



- Now, I need to insert the appropriate numbers, and then show that they make sense.


This'll end well.



- P(X|me) = (1/∞*.99)/(1/∞*.99+.5*.01)


Oh look! He's fallen at the first hurdle.



1) I've begun trying to support my use of "1/∞" for the likelihood of my current existence, given X; I'll keep working on that.


Then you obviously need to keep doing the same thing over and over, hoping for a different result.

Luckily I have my standard responses to your endlessly reiterated statements of intent sorted out into various buckets. It saves me a great deal of time.



2) I don't think that I actually need to use "∞" in the formula -- an unimaginably large number would be sufficient. I'll also work on explaining and supporting that.


You can work on it until the cows come home but "unimaginably large number = ∞" will never be true.



3) I don't think that our background knowledge should translate to anywhere near a prior probability of 99% for X, but if the rest of my logic holds, I can be generous about this number.


Neither do I. Especially for certain values of "our".



4) The likelihood of me existing given non-X is especially difficult to nail down -- but, if the rest of my logic holds , this number hardly matters.


Bummer.



5) The prior probability of non-X is just the complement of the prior probability of X.


That actually makes sense!




- I'll start with providing my evidence and logic for #1 unless someone wants me to start elsewhere.


I think you need to get your buckets in a row first.
 
Jabba, Jabba, Bo-babba; Banana-mana Mo-Mabba; Fee, Fie, Fo-fabba:

Is there a power in the 'verse that could get you to stop (that is, cease, halt, discontinue, eschew, lay to rest, bring to a close, drop-like-a-prom-dress, "don' do thet nae moe") using the solecism, "essentially prove"?

What do you think it means? What else could you say, that would mean the same thing in your mind, but would not clang so loudly upon the bulwarks of sense and reason, sundering the garlanded logic chains of meaning?
 
Jabba, now that we've circled back to the formula again, perhaps it would be appropriate for you to explain how infinity is like a very large number? Because it seems to me therein lies the problem.
 
- P(X|me) = (1/∞*.99)/(1/∞*.99+.5*.01)

Forgive me if I sound like a complete idiot, because Bayesian statistics are not my area of expertise. However, wouldn't dividing by infinity (or a sufficiently large number) and then multiplying out cause both the numerator and denominator to approach zero?
 
Forgive me if I sound like a complete idiot, because Bayesian statistics are not my area of expertise. However, wouldn't dividing by infinity (or a sufficiently large number) and then multiplying out cause both the numerator and denominator to approach zero?

Yup. Jabba has mathematically proven that he does not exist.
 
Jabba, now that we've circled back to the formula again, perhaps it would be appropriate for you to explain how infinity is like a very large number? Because it seems to me therein lies the problem.

therein lies one of the problems.

Every step of Jabba's reasoning contains one or more errors.
 
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The Math

Forgive me if I sound like a complete idiot, because Bayesian statistics are not my area of expertise. However, wouldn't dividing by infinity (or a sufficiently large number) and then multiplying out cause both the numerator and denominator to approach zero?
Frozenwolf,
- The numerator would approach zero, but not the denominator. The plus sign in the denominator makes all the difference.
 
- You've probably told me already what you think is incorrect about my argument. Please refresh my memory -- one or two issues would be enough to get me started. Thanks.

A few days ago you decided that you were going to start working on answering specific questions rather than getting distracted. Why are you now allowing yourself to get distracted rather than answering the specific questions you had decided you were going to answer?
 
Forgive me if I sound like a complete idiot, because Bayesian statistics are not my area of expertise. However, wouldn't dividing by infinity (or a sufficiently large number) and then multiplying out cause both the numerator and denominator to approach zero?

Yes. The argument is that the probability of Jabba existing is zero. Therefore God did it. Therefore he's got a soul. Therefore he's immortal.

He's avoiding mentioning God, but it's not hard to see.
 
The Math

Your best response to the argument that I've been able to find is this one:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9569839&postcount=520
In my opinion it misses the point, but it does at least address the heart of the debate.
Shuttit,


It turns out that there are two factors causing you to be suspicious of that first deck -- and one is missing in regard to the second deck. There is nothing about the second hand that sets it apart in such a way as to suggest another plausible hypothesis… If there were, you’d be suspicious of that second deck as well. It’s as simple as that…


- I agree that any totally specific hand in the game of poker is just as unlikely as a royal flush in spades -- it's just that, in the game of poker, a royal flush in spades is the best hand you can get, and suggests another possible explanation than chance. If it happens that your foolish opponent getting the royal flush is friends with the foolish dealer, and both have been accused of cheating in the past, you would be justified in suspecting something other than chance in determining your opponents hand... Whereas, a specific, equally unlikely but losing hand would not suggest any other plausible explanation than chance.

- I'll try to cut to the chase. I think that you have, indeed, identified the heart of this matter. I believe that the other live issues are the result of ineffective communication.
- Please bear with me. I think that clearly identifying our basic disagreements is the real key to effective debate. Do you accept a prior probability of .01 for "Y"?
 
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