Mercenaries Third Largest Force in Iraq

subgenius said:
I think you have answered the age old question about how many angels can dance on the point of a pin.
Congratulations on succeeding where countless others have failed.

And to think some people often consider liberals to be aloof and defensive when asked an honest question... Crazy stuff. Obviously just a case of bad PR.

Perhaps you would consider updating your sig line to read, "Proud to be evasive"?
 
evildave said:


It was in our best interest, being a leading consumer of that same petroleum.

To insist that petroleum is NOT the core reason for all of this mess is to truly be out of touch with reality.
Life After The Oil Crash
In the context of Peak Oil, the wars in the Middle East are not wars of greed. Rather, they are wars of survival. Given our current infrastructure, that oil is necessary to keep our food and water supply running.

You can expect the U.S. to invade other oil rich nations such as Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia within the next 2-5 years. As you watch the news, you can already notice the hints are being dropped. "Iran has WMD" or "Syria isn't cooperating in the war on terror" or "Saudi Arabia is funding terrorism". "The war on terror will last for decades." The stage is being set so that the American public will accept these future invasions.
 
Come on people, can't we all just get along?

To prove we can, let's all join together in song:

Pay to kill, die to lose, hunted, hunter which are you
Diablo come again to make trophies out of men
Lose your skin, lose your skull, one by one the sack is full
In the heat dehydrate, know which breath will be your last

Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide, you've got to kill to stay alive
Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide, you've got to kill to stay alive

Show them no fear, show them no pain
Show them no fear, show them no pain
Show them no fear, show them no pain
Show them no fear, show them no pain

Human heart, human mind, intellect intertwined
Focus sharp in the night, watch the jungle burning bright
Toe to toe throw the line, everyone's caught hand tied
Iron will iron fist, how could it have come to this?

Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide, you've got to kill to stay live
Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide, you've got to kill to stay alive

Show them no fear, show them no pain
Show them no fear, show them no pain
Show them no fear, show them no pain
Show them no fear, show them no pain

(Iron Maiden, The Mercenary)
 
shemp said:


Yep, that's exactly what the guys who patrol my local food court look like.
That wouldn't surprise me at all. I work for a phone company. One of the "mercenary" that protected a major communication center was at Pear Harbor when it attacked. When he retired, he was replaced with another trained killer that has to stop and catch his breath after climbing 7 steps before he has enough strength to open the door. We know where are priorities lie, don''t we?

I like those Pink Floyd lyrics "Dogs of War. He understood what a mercenary was. If the Blackwater employees were really dogs of war, then they would have attacked Fallujah out of revenge.
 
crackmonkey:
"Perhaps I misread your intent when you said
"I don't fancy the people of Fallujah have much chance of repelling the invaders, but I wish them all the best in their endeavours. ".

I assume that means that you hope they kill the US and allies, or at least their
"mercenaries and paid killers".

Yeah, it sounds like you're really choked up over their deaths."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I never claimed I was choked up over their deaths and I never said I was delighted over them either, that`s your claim. You would know why I was not delighted if you read what I actually said.
However as you believe (from previous posts), that the US/UK should have attacked Iraq, well, now Iraq is under occupation and these four men were part of the occupiers so they were a legitimite target as far as the occupied are concerned.

In 1992 American bombed the Al Amariyah shelter in Baghdad killing 1500 women and children, yet apparently this was not sufficiently upsetting to the American public to warrant calling the troops back. Yet when 18 Americans died in Mogadishu (1000's of Somalis died in the same battle too), this is so terrible the occupation has to end.
Far greater outrage was expressed over those deaths and the four recent ones because the "mobs" that did it, did it up close and personal, not cold and clinically from the air. You have seen the pictures of the Fallujah incident and what became of the of those people with their blackened, charred, and broken bodies. Well, it`s pretty much the same as you'd look if a f-16, or any other US bomber benignly named after a letter and a number, dropped a bomb on your house.
This extra value many Americans place on American life over that of other humans, is just as disgusting to me as when "Al Qaeda" warn muslims to avoid certain areas they plan to attack, like every non muslim is worthless.

So where does this leave us? It`s obvious, out of the thousands of deaths that have occured as a result of this invasion, which deaths seem to have choked you the most but I have to say; if you has listened to those who thought the Iraqi invasion was a bad idea, instead of believing crap from Perle and his cronies about GI's being showered with confetti, then you would have realised what was in store, and maybe those guys would have been safe today.

I wonder how genuinely choked up Dick Cheney and his pals are for these people? A small price to pay for all those fat contracts coming their way, perhaps?
In all honesty crackmonkey, your ire would be better directed at those who concocted this fraud.
 
So... what did you mean when you wished the insurgents the best in their endeavors?
Do you merely wish them all teh best when they attack US troops, or do you wish them well when they attack Iraqi police and civilians?
 
Outcast said:
Life After The Oil Crash


In the context of Peak Oil, the wars in the Middle East are not wars of greed. Rather, they are wars of survival. Given our current infrastructure, that oil is necessary to keep our food and water supply running.

You can expect the U.S. to invade other oil rich nations such as Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia within the next 2-5 years. As you watch the news, you can already notice the hints are being dropped. "Iran has WMD" or "Syria isn't cooperating in the war on terror" or "Saudi Arabia is funding terrorism". "The war on terror will last for decades." The stage is being set so that the American public will accept these future invasions.

More soundtrack music.
 
I will be very interested to see how Dubya and the <strike>Bush Re-Election War Committee</strike> Pentagon retaliate against the people of Fallujah. Will they carry out a thorough investigation and arrest the individuals responsible? Or will they just carry out a wholesale bombing of the city? The former is unfeasible, and the latter will kill many individuals who were innocent and did not take part in the killings. I suspect the actual answer will be somewhere in between but much closer to the latter.
 
I find it hard to see what all the fuss is about. Bush said, "Bring it on", and they did. There just isn't any pleasing some people.
 
Mr Manifesto said:
I find it hard to see what all the fuss is about. Bush said, "Bring it on", and they did. There just isn't any pleasing some people.

Yes indeed, he said that from the comfort of the White House. He said that knowing that neither he nor his loved ones, nor any of his big-money campaign financiers, would have to face an enemy bullet or bomb without proper protection, but that kids from poor families, who have been shafted by a piss-poor public educational system that is being gutted by Republican-backed privitization, and who have no real job options other than military cannon fodder, will face those bullets and bombs.
 
Jocko said:
Just to throw more fuel on the fire...

Since the definition of "mercenary" seems to be at the root of the discussion, can someone offer me an opinion on whether or not the "human shields" who took up brief residence in Iraq prior to the war should also me considered "mercenaries"?

Common sense tells me they would not, but with Subgenius' definition, it seems like they could be. They bore political weapons as opposed to military weapons, but they were foreign nationals acting on behalf of a government in a (soon to be) war zone, were they not?

The human shields I was aware of weren't paid by the Iraqi government. Perhaps you can provide examples of ones who were.
 
Jocko said:


And to think some people often consider liberals to be aloof and defensive when asked an honest question... Crazy stuff. Obviously just a case of bad PR.

Perhaps you would consider updating your sig line to read, "Proud to be evasive"?
It was not an honest good faith question to begin with, as evidenced by your own statement that it didn't make common sense to you. Further proof is your conclusion about liberals, a point that you were going to get to one way or the other.
Since it didn't make common sense to you what made you think I was going to waste my time with it?

"Some people consider liberals to be aloof and defensive when asked an honest question." I'll add that one to my list.

Still it seems many don't really want to address the political issues surrounding the use of mercenaries throughout history, just like to do that semantic fox trot. Ah one and ah two....
 
Turns out the tread title is wrong: Mercenaries are the SECOND largest force in Iraq:

"Business is booming at Blackwater, and the company is hardly alone. Private contractors are an invisible but growing part of how war is now fought. Some 10,000 of them are serving in Iraq — one private worker for every 10 soldiers — more than the number of soldiers from Britain, America's largest coalition partner."
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/02/opinion/02YEOM.html
 
Some of the issues:

"The industry rose to prominence under President George H.W. Bush — Brown and Root, a Halliburton subsidiary, received a $9 million contract to study supplementing military efforts after the Persian Gulf war. The Clinton administration sent more work to contractors, but it is under the current president, a strong believer in government privatization, that things started booming. Gary Jackson, the president of Blackwater, envisions a day when any country faced with peacekeeping duties will simply call him and place an order. "I would like to have the largest, most professional private army in the world," he told me.

This raises some obvious questions. Shouldn't war be a government function? Why rely on the private sector for our national defense, even if it is largely a supporting role?
...
For one, substituting contactors for soldiers offers the government a way to avoid unpopular military forays. According to Myles Frechette, who was President Bill Clinton's ambassador to Colombia, private companies performed jobs in Latin America that would have been politically unpalatable for the armed forces. After all, if the government were shipping home soldiers' corpses from the coca fields, the public outcry would be tremendous. However, more than 20 private contractors have been killed in Colombia alone since 1998, and their deaths have barely registered.

This points to the biggest problem with the outsourcing of war: there is far less accountability to the American public and to international law than if real troops were performing the tasks. In the 1990's, several employees of one company, DynCorp, were implicated in a sex-trafficking scandal in Bosnia involving girls as young as 12. Had these men been soldiers, they would have faced court-martial proceedings. As private workers, they were simply put on the next plane back to America.

Think about it: a private military firm might decide to pack its own bags for any number of reasons, leaving American soldiers and equipment vulnerable to enemy attack. If the military really can't fight wars without contractors, it must at least come up with ironclad policies on what to do if the private soldiers break local laws or leave American forces in the lurch.

What happened in Falluja was a tragedy, no matter what uniform the slain men wore. Private contractors are viewed by Iraqis as part of the occupation, yet they lack the military and political backing of our combat troops. So far, the Pentagon has failed to prove it can take responsibility for either the actions or the safety of its private-sector soldiers.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/02/opinion/02YEOM.html

Not as distracting and ridiculous as debating whether, for instance, girl scouts can be considered mercenaries, but let's give it a try.
 
Are they 'mercenaries' too?
You know, journalists, businessmen, and others who feel the need for protection often hire armed guards in troubled areas. Are these mercenaries? If you consider an armed bodyguard as a merc, then the world is practically crawling with them. Why should Iraq be any different?

Incidentally, I'm not going to waste my time reviewing every post you've ever made about Bush. Are you saying that you've never made a baseless assertion against Bush?
 
crackmonkey said:
Are they 'mercenaries' too?
You know, journalists, businessmen, and others who feel the need for protection often hire armed guards in troubled areas. Are these mercenaries? If you consider an armed bodyguard as a merc, then the world is practically crawling with them. Why should Iraq be any different?

Incidentally, I'm not going to waste my time reviewing every post you've ever made about Bush. Are you saying that you've never made a baseless assertion against Bush?
You are the one that said I did, you must have had proof right?
You had apparrently reviewed some and had the evidence before you made your statement, right? Otherwise that would make you a .......

Feel free to post the evidence on the thread where you made your slur rather than continue to derail this one. I'm not holding my breath.
You already offered to do so if that would make me feel better. Not going back on your word are you? That would make you a ...
 
Yeah. One that springs to mind was in the 'Bushisms' thread - you repeated some rumor that was pointed out to be urban legend.
'Kay?
Now, care to comment on the current topic? That would be 'mercs'... I notice that you have a habit of derailing the thread yourself when things get uncomfortable for you...
 
crackmonkey said:
Yeah. One that springs to mind was in the 'Bushisms' thread - you repeated some rumor that was pointed out to be urban legend.
'Kay?
Now, care to comment on the current topic? That would be 'mercs'... I notice that you have a habit of derailing the thread yourself when things get uncomfortable for you...
Hardly an uncorroborated rumor about Bush. Your original assertion is that I constantly post every uncorroborated rumor about Bush.

You allude to a theoretical quote, and you don't cite it specifically, but if there was such it was not without corroboration, I listed, and do list citations for every asserted fact. And if I did repeat a misquote, and it was pointed out, I apologized, and stood corrected. Unlike you.

Now you make a new charge: that I have a habit of derailing a thread.......if you are referring to this one the record speaks for itself. You wouldn't be trying to derail this thread again by making another baseless charge, would you?

Comment on the current topic? I have posted a thoughtful very recent article pointing out some of the issues with mercs. I agree that those are serious issues.
Can you grasp the concept that the use of mercs is not all bad or all good, but that there may be issues that need to be addressed, instead of first denying their existence, and then issuing a blanket endorsement?

Best of times, or worst of times? It could hardly be both.
 

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