from Army exodus : SAS troops quit
It isn't just Americans who have found the "coalition of the billing" to be a lucrative venture.
Mercenaries Third Largest Force in Iraq
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from Army exodus : SAS troops quit
It isn't just Americans who have found the "coalition of the billing" to be a lucrative venture.
One civilian contractor was accused of raping a young male prisoner but has not been charged because military law has no jurisdiction over him.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1206725,00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1206725,00.html
WASHINGTON -- A legal loophole could allow four American civilian contractors allegedly involved in the abuse of Iraqi prisoners to escape punishment, US military officials and specialists said yesterday.
....
But the four civilian workers identified in an internal army report for their involvement in the physical and sexual mistreatment of the prisoners -- including the alleged rape of one detainee -- cannot be punished under military law, and it is unclear whether they will face any charges under either US or Iraqi laws.
...
The allegations of prisoner abuse, ranging from sodomizing a prisoner with a chemical lightstick, to forcing Iraqi prisoners to simulate sex acts on film, to connecting wires to the genitals of one prisoner, have also raised new questions on the role of civilian interrogators in Iraq and on the heavier military reliance on private contractors who often operate outside the code of military conduct and largely under their own rules.
"This is not something we have seen in previous wars," said Peter W. Singer, a fellow at the Brookings Institution and author of "Corporate Warriors: The Rise of the Privatized Military Industry," referring to the use of civilian interrogators. Singer said the tendency to use private contractors for a wide variety of services -- instead of calling up more troops -- could pose serious legal problems for the US military.
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Military officials said yesterday that the contractors could not be tried under military laws and that they were unsure if Iraqi or US laws would be applied. A US spokeswoman in Baghdad said the military usually refers such cases back to the companies that employ them, and she believed that is what is being done in this case.
"The military has no jurisdiction over the civilian contractors," said the spokeswoman, who has been assigned by military officials to handle inquiries on the prison abuse scandal. She asked not to be identified. "The military can make recommendations, but it is going to be up to the employer to decide what measures to take."
But CACI chief executive Jack London said yesterday that the firm has not received any information from the US government or military about the alleged crimes, despite inquiries and a request for a copy of the internal report.
"I think it is disgusting, and I certainly would believe that our people would not do these things," London said in a telephone interview. "On the other hand, if it turns out that our people did, we won't tolerate it. We won't permit it to continue. We, certainly to the best of my knowledge, we never trained people to do those kinds of things at all."
Singer said it is not enough to refer the crimes back to the companies, because they rarely take them seriously enough and cannot impose sufficient punishment for a crime like rape.
"No company can properly punish a felony offense. . . . All you do is you lose a paycheck," said Singer. "This pushes out to way past the envelope. We've already outsourced logistics, we've outsourced training, we've outsourced certain activities in combat. What's left? My concern is we really need to take a step back and look at what should be outsourced."
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The growing reliance on private contractors has drawn more concern among lawmakers over the cost effectiveness of using more civilian workers in dangerous zones.
Larry Diamond, a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University, said it is more difficult to hold civilians accountable than soldiers in places like Iraq.
"If there are military officers doing the interrogating, there are military standards and military instruments to hold them accountable," said Diamond, who was a senior adviser on governance to the Coalition Provisional Authority. "But with civilian contractors, what are the parallel means of accountability?"
...
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/a...ace_no_charges/
....
But the four civilian workers identified in an internal army report for their involvement in the physical and sexual mistreatment of the prisoners -- including the alleged rape of one detainee -- cannot be punished under military law, and it is unclear whether they will face any charges under either US or Iraqi laws.
...
The allegations of prisoner abuse, ranging from sodomizing a prisoner with a chemical lightstick, to forcing Iraqi prisoners to simulate sex acts on film, to connecting wires to the genitals of one prisoner, have also raised new questions on the role of civilian interrogators in Iraq and on the heavier military reliance on private contractors who often operate outside the code of military conduct and largely under their own rules.
"This is not something we have seen in previous wars," said Peter W. Singer, a fellow at the Brookings Institution and author of "Corporate Warriors: The Rise of the Privatized Military Industry," referring to the use of civilian interrogators. Singer said the tendency to use private contractors for a wide variety of services -- instead of calling up more troops -- could pose serious legal problems for the US military.
...
Military officials said yesterday that the contractors could not be tried under military laws and that they were unsure if Iraqi or US laws would be applied. A US spokeswoman in Baghdad said the military usually refers such cases back to the companies that employ them, and she believed that is what is being done in this case.
"The military has no jurisdiction over the civilian contractors," said the spokeswoman, who has been assigned by military officials to handle inquiries on the prison abuse scandal. She asked not to be identified. "The military can make recommendations, but it is going to be up to the employer to decide what measures to take."
But CACI chief executive Jack London said yesterday that the firm has not received any information from the US government or military about the alleged crimes, despite inquiries and a request for a copy of the internal report.
"I think it is disgusting, and I certainly would believe that our people would not do these things," London said in a telephone interview. "On the other hand, if it turns out that our people did, we won't tolerate it. We won't permit it to continue. We, certainly to the best of my knowledge, we never trained people to do those kinds of things at all."
Singer said it is not enough to refer the crimes back to the companies, because they rarely take them seriously enough and cannot impose sufficient punishment for a crime like rape.
"No company can properly punish a felony offense. . . . All you do is you lose a paycheck," said Singer. "This pushes out to way past the envelope. We've already outsourced logistics, we've outsourced training, we've outsourced certain activities in combat. What's left? My concern is we really need to take a step back and look at what should be outsourced."
....
The growing reliance on private contractors has drawn more concern among lawmakers over the cost effectiveness of using more civilian workers in dangerous zones.
Larry Diamond, a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University, said it is more difficult to hold civilians accountable than soldiers in places like Iraq.
"If there are military officers doing the interrogating, there are military standards and military instruments to hold them accountable," said Diamond, who was a senior adviser on governance to the Coalition Provisional Authority. "But with civilian contractors, what are the parallel means of accountability?"
...
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/a...ace_no_charges/
Grammatron
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subgenius said:
Interesting story however I think they are stretching it a bit when it comes to "how things are." Of course you will disagree with me but this was one incident and is in no way a representation of what's going on in Iraq.
Not that you offered your opinion on this particular topic anyway, but I do not think you will like the alternative of military prosecuting civilians for "regular" crimes.
Grammatron said:
The story had nothing to do with whether this was widespread (although the military's own report calls it systemic and not isolated).
On your other point:
The alternative is not military prosecutions of civilians. That's not legal in this instance.
The point of the article is that there may be no alternative, other than normal employment discipline, eg. termination, that the guilty, if any will escape true justice, and that illustrates another problem with mercenaries.
Grammatron
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subgenius said:
Can you link to that army report please?
Don't get me wrong, I want those people to be punished however there needs to be a system in place for things like that. Do we let Iraqis prosecute and administer the punishment if found guilty? Does the American justice system extend outside its borders? I think it would be dangerous to allow US law to cover areas outside US and I simply do not know a good way of dealing with those alleged abusers. Perhaps you could offer an opinion on that?
You'll have to google for the new yorker article on it. Also Nightline just last night had a show on it and summarized it.
"there needs to be a system in place for things like that."
Why wasn't/still isn't there? One of the problems of mercenaries that has been pointed out in this thread. If we could see it coming why couldn't the powers that be?
"there needs to be a system in place for things like that."
Why wasn't/still isn't there? One of the problems of mercenaries that has been pointed out in this thread. If we could see it coming why couldn't the powers that be?
Grammatron
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subgenius said:
As far as I understand it has only been systematic by the alleged not by the entire army so my original statement stands.
I don't know if there is or isn't to behind with. Since I am not versed in international law I do not know if and how US can punish. I am going to bet that the civilian contractors who were responsible in any way for this will be punished somehow, although I doubt you will think it's adequate. I also bet that some/all of those prisoners will be filing a lawsuit against USA in billions.
U.S. Army report on Iraqi prisoner abuse
Complete text of Article 15-6 Investigation of the 800th
Military Police Brigade by Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4894001/
IO COMMENTS REGARDING MG RYDER’S REPORT
1. (U) The objective of MG Ryder’s Team was to observe detention and prison operations, identify potential systemic and human rights issues, and provide near-term, mid-term, and long-term recommendations to improve CJTF-7 operations and transition of the Iraqi prison system from US military control/oversight to the Coalition Provisional Authority and eventually to the Iraqi Government. The Findings and Recommendations of MG Ryder’s Team are thorough and precise and should be implemented immediately. (ANNEX 19)
2. (U) Unfortunately, many of the systemic problems that surfaced during MG Ryder’s Team’s assessment are the very same issues that are the subject of this investigation. In fact, many of the abuses suffered by detainees occurred during, or near to, the time of that assessment.
Complete text of Article 15-6 Investigation of the 800th
Military Police Brigade by Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4894001/
IO COMMENTS REGARDING MG RYDER’S REPORT
1. (U) The objective of MG Ryder’s Team was to observe detention and prison operations, identify potential systemic and human rights issues, and provide near-term, mid-term, and long-term recommendations to improve CJTF-7 operations and transition of the Iraqi prison system from US military control/oversight to the Coalition Provisional Authority and eventually to the Iraqi Government. The Findings and Recommendations of MG Ryder’s Team are thorough and precise and should be implemented immediately. (ANNEX 19)
2. (U) Unfortunately, many of the systemic problems that surfaced during MG Ryder’s Team’s assessment are the very same issues that are the subject of this investigation. In fact, many of the abuses suffered by detainees occurred during, or near to, the time of that assessment.
Pentagon Memo Warned on Army Contractors
May 7, 7:43 AM (ET)
By MATT KELLEY
WASHINGTON (AP) - A year before the Iraq invasion, the then-Army secretary warned his Pentagon bosses that there was inadequate control of private military contractors, which are now at the heart of controversies over misspending and prisoner abuse.
The author of that memo, retired Army chief Thomas White, said in a telephone interview with The Associated Press that the recent events show the Pentagon has a long way to go to fix the problems he identified in March 2002.
"Clearly, there was a lot of work that had to be done and still needs to be done," White said Thursday.
In a sign of continued problems with the tracking of contracts, Pentagon officials on Thursday acknowledged they have yet to identify which Army entity manages the multimillion-dollar contract for interrogators like the one accused in the Iraq prisoner abuse probe.
Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld also acknowledged his department hasn't completed rules to govern the 20,000 or so private security guards watching over U.S. officials, installations and private workers in Iraq.
No single Pentagon office tracks how many people - Americans, Iraqis or others - are on the department's payroll in Iraq.
"You've got thousands of people running around on taxpayer dollars that the Pentagon can't account for in any way," said Dan Guttman, a lawyer and government contracting expert at Johns Hopkins University. "Contractors are invisible, even at the highest level of the Pentagon."
...
Guttman said the Pentagon in the past decades has significantly cut its contract management work force while increasing its number of contracts with private companies.
The contract with CACI International Inc. is one example. An Army report on alleged abuse at the Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad says a CACI interrogator lied to investigators and ordered soldiers to abuse prisoners.
Pentagon officials said Thursday they have not determined which agency oversees the contract, which originally was with the Premier Technology Group, a smaller company providing contract interrogators that CACI bought last May.
"We haven't been able to find anyone who knows what contract that was," said Deborah Parker, a spokeswoman for the Army's Intelligence and Security Command. Parker said her agency did not hire any contract interrogators.
CACI in March landed an $11.9 million contract with the Army's European Command for "intelligence analyst support services," which includes providing intelligence operatives for the global war on terrorism.
Pentagon officials said they did not know whether the CACI workers in Iraq were under a predecessor to that contract, which was not in effect at the time of the alleged abuse last fall.
CACI chairman J.P. "Jack" London, in a conference call with investment analysts Wednesday, did not identify the Army agency that managed the Iraq interrogator contract. London said the Pentagon had not told CACI about any problems.
...
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040507/D82DNCQG0.html
May 7, 7:43 AM (ET)
By MATT KELLEY
WASHINGTON (AP) - A year before the Iraq invasion, the then-Army secretary warned his Pentagon bosses that there was inadequate control of private military contractors, which are now at the heart of controversies over misspending and prisoner abuse.
The author of that memo, retired Army chief Thomas White, said in a telephone interview with The Associated Press that the recent events show the Pentagon has a long way to go to fix the problems he identified in March 2002.
"Clearly, there was a lot of work that had to be done and still needs to be done," White said Thursday.
In a sign of continued problems with the tracking of contracts, Pentagon officials on Thursday acknowledged they have yet to identify which Army entity manages the multimillion-dollar contract for interrogators like the one accused in the Iraq prisoner abuse probe.
Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld also acknowledged his department hasn't completed rules to govern the 20,000 or so private security guards watching over U.S. officials, installations and private workers in Iraq.
No single Pentagon office tracks how many people - Americans, Iraqis or others - are on the department's payroll in Iraq.
"You've got thousands of people running around on taxpayer dollars that the Pentagon can't account for in any way," said Dan Guttman, a lawyer and government contracting expert at Johns Hopkins University. "Contractors are invisible, even at the highest level of the Pentagon."
...
Guttman said the Pentagon in the past decades has significantly cut its contract management work force while increasing its number of contracts with private companies.
The contract with CACI International Inc. is one example. An Army report on alleged abuse at the Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad says a CACI interrogator lied to investigators and ordered soldiers to abuse prisoners.
Pentagon officials said Thursday they have not determined which agency oversees the contract, which originally was with the Premier Technology Group, a smaller company providing contract interrogators that CACI bought last May.
"We haven't been able to find anyone who knows what contract that was," said Deborah Parker, a spokeswoman for the Army's Intelligence and Security Command. Parker said her agency did not hire any contract interrogators.
CACI in March landed an $11.9 million contract with the Army's European Command for "intelligence analyst support services," which includes providing intelligence operatives for the global war on terrorism.
Pentagon officials said they did not know whether the CACI workers in Iraq were under a predecessor to that contract, which was not in effect at the time of the alleged abuse last fall.
CACI chairman J.P. "Jack" London, in a conference call with investment analysts Wednesday, did not identify the Army agency that managed the Iraq interrogator contract. London said the Pentagon had not told CACI about any problems.
...
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040507/D82DNCQG0.html
JEFFERSON CITY -- Gov. Bob Holden wrote President George W. Bush on Tuesday saying he was concerned about the use of Missouri National Guard soldiers to drive vehicles for civilian contractors in Iraq.
Holden said if they are, he strenuously objected to the "wrongful use of U.S. Army personnel in this manner."
Holden's letter said he had been in contact with Missouri Adjutant General Dennis Shull, who said he had received complaints from soldiers' families about the type of duty the soldiers were being assigned in Iraq. Holden's letter said Shull had told him that the guard was supplying drivers for Kellogg, Brown and Root, a civilian contractor.
The complaints came from families whose loved ones are serving with the 1221st Transportation Co. That unit, which is based in Jefferson City, includes a detachment from St. Louis.
"I can understand the necessity to occasionally use units and soldiers to do other non-traditional kinds of missions to accommodate the short-term dictates of the combat zone; but I cannot understand, nor support, the use of soldiers to provide labor for a civilian contractor," Holden's letter to Bush said.
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/ne...nt&Headline=Holden:+Missouri+soldiers+shouldn't+drive+civilian+contracto
Pretty cool. Soldiers taking orders from contractors. Contractors maximizing profits by using labor free to them paid for by us.
Can't get any better than that. Just think of all the money we're saving.
Holden said if they are, he strenuously objected to the "wrongful use of U.S. Army personnel in this manner."
Holden's letter said he had been in contact with Missouri Adjutant General Dennis Shull, who said he had received complaints from soldiers' families about the type of duty the soldiers were being assigned in Iraq. Holden's letter said Shull had told him that the guard was supplying drivers for Kellogg, Brown and Root, a civilian contractor.
The complaints came from families whose loved ones are serving with the 1221st Transportation Co. That unit, which is based in Jefferson City, includes a detachment from St. Louis.
"I can understand the necessity to occasionally use units and soldiers to do other non-traditional kinds of missions to accommodate the short-term dictates of the combat zone; but I cannot understand, nor support, the use of soldiers to provide labor for a civilian contractor," Holden's letter to Bush said.
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/ne...nt&Headline=Holden:+Missouri+soldiers+shouldn't+drive+civilian+contracto
Pretty cool. Soldiers taking orders from contractors. Contractors maximizing profits by using labor free to them paid for by us.
Can't get any better than that. Just think of all the money we're saving.
Kodiak
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subgenius said:
Soldiers may be driving vehicles for contractors, but no contractors are issuing orders. Contactors may request military drivers from the Pentagon, but it is still the "higher-ups" giving the orders.
Whatever the motive, I doubt it's profit (is it just bias or cynicism that leads you to conclude this?). The most likely reason is that the contractors wanted an armed presence in their vehicles, and all enlisted servicemen are taught to drive trucks.
.....
Meanwhile, a class action suit filed in San Diego on Wednesday accused two U.S. defense contractors of conspiring with U.S. officials to torture and abuse Iraqi prisoners.
The suit alleged that San-Diego based Titan Corp. and CACI International of Arlington, Virginia, engaged in "heinous and illegal acts" to show they could get intelligence from detainees, and thereby obtain more government contracts.
Employees from both firms, which provided interrogation and translation services in Iraq, were named in an earlier report on the prison abuse by U.S. Army investigator Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba.
......
http://news.myway.com/top/article/id/402124|top|06-10-2004::08:45|reuters.html
Meanwhile, a class action suit filed in San Diego on Wednesday accused two U.S. defense contractors of conspiring with U.S. officials to torture and abuse Iraqi prisoners.
The suit alleged that San-Diego based Titan Corp. and CACI International of Arlington, Virginia, engaged in "heinous and illegal acts" to show they could get intelligence from detainees, and thereby obtain more government contracts.
Employees from both firms, which provided interrogation and translation services in Iraq, were named in an earlier report on the prison abuse by U.S. Army investigator Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba.
......
http://news.myway.com/top/article/id/402124|top|06-10-2004::08:45|reuters.html
Army Policy Bars Interrogations by Private Contractors
By JOEL BRINKLEY
Published: June 12, 2004
WASHINGTON, June 11 - The use of private contractors as interrogators at Abu Ghraib and other prisons in Iraq violates an Army policy that requires such jobs to be filled by government employees because of the "risk to national security," among other concerns, the Army acknowledged Friday.
An Army policy directive published in 2000 and still in effect today, the military said, classifies any job that involves "the gathering and analysis" of tactical intelligence as "an inherently governmental function barred from private sector performance."
....
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/12/international/worldspecial/12cont.html
By JOEL BRINKLEY
Published: June 12, 2004
WASHINGTON, June 11 - The use of private contractors as interrogators at Abu Ghraib and other prisons in Iraq violates an Army policy that requires such jobs to be filled by government employees because of the "risk to national security," among other concerns, the Army acknowledged Friday.
An Army policy directive published in 2000 and still in effect today, the military said, classifies any job that involves "the gathering and analysis" of tactical intelligence as "an inherently governmental function barred from private sector performance."
....
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/12/international/worldspecial/12cont.html
CIA Contractor Indicted in Prison Abuse
Jun 17, 12:36 PM (ET)
By CURT ANDERSON
WASHINGTON (AP) - A contractor working for the CIA has been indicted by a federal grand jury on charges stemming from the abuse of a prisoner in Afghanistan, the first civilian to face criminal charges in the case, officials said Thursday.
......
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040617/D838SHAG0.html
This was not Iraq....so how could they be isolated incidents unknown to the higher ups?
Jun 17, 12:36 PM (ET)
By CURT ANDERSON
WASHINGTON (AP) - A contractor working for the CIA has been indicted by a federal grand jury on charges stemming from the abuse of a prisoner in Afghanistan, the first civilian to face criminal charges in the case, officials said Thursday.
......
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040617/D838SHAG0.html
This was not Iraq....so how could they be isolated incidents unknown to the higher ups?
