Memory Experiment

[voidx]

So, the short answer is...

You don't need to understand how you do something, in order to do it and have it be a useful tool. You don't need to be consciously aware of how the brain processes information in order for you to act upon it, therefore you're not aware of how it works.

 

[Matt the Poet]

Ok.
I'm not playing the "I know something.." game.
My point is this: I have no idea what I did in order to bring my first school to mind, but whatever I did I did it easily, and have been doing so since I was in my stroller. Yet I have no way to put into words what I did.
So a kind of paradox arises. I know how to do something, but I have absolutely no clue at all how I did it.

This, in fact, applies to all our conscious activities.
I haven't seen it pointed out anywhere, so I thought I would.

It’s only a paradox if you believe that it’s different from any other physical event. As far as I’m concerned, what happens when I remember my first school is a sequence of chemical reactions – different only in external effect from what happens when I digest food, go running, watch a film, fall in love etc. etc.,

This is because everything I am is a sequence of chemical reactions. There really isn’t a more accurate way to describe it than that.

 

[plumjam]

How is that a paradox? Your consciousness isn't the central meaner of the entity which is you. It isn't the seat of causation. You are not consciously aware or privy to the vast majority of processing that goes on within your body and your brain. Consciousness is used for higher level abstract thought. Looking for patterns and analysis of the vast swath of experiential data your senses take in.

The question really is, why are you suprised that you've no consciously aware idea of how your body accomplishes all its non-conscious tasks? Why would you expect to?

You are avoiding the point by concentrating on non-conscious activities. My examples are about conscious intention. You know how to intentionally consciously recall memories, yet you have no idea at all how you did it.

 

[plumjam]

It’s only a paradox if you believe that it’s different from any other physical event. As far as I’m concerned, what happens when I remember my first school is a sequence of chemical reactions – different only in external effect from what happens when I digest food, go running, watch a film, fall in love etc. etc.,

This is because everything I am is a sequence of chemical reactions. There really isn’t a more accurate way to describe it than that.

Yet you also make conscious decisions. In choosing one path of action over others you did something. You know you did it, you know how to do it.. you just have no idea how you did it.
But not knowing how you did it won't affect you being able to do it again and again and again.

 

[plumjam]

Not understanding autonomic functions, instinct, reflexes, etc. is hardly the basis for a paradox.

None of these.
It was a conscious choice to somehow activate my memory, and to do it in an incredibly specific way.
I could have consciously chosen to remember millions of things, but I chose one. And within a split second it was there in my consciousness. Quite an impressive feat. All of which I did easily without knowing how I did it.

 

[voidx]

You are avoiding the point by concentrating on non-conscious activities. My examples are about conscious intention. You know how to intentionally consciously recall memories, yet you have no idea at all how you did it.

And you're missing the point entirely.

Visualize a pink turtle with 3 heads. How'd you do it?

Your question really has nothing to do with memory recollection. It basically boils down to, when you think about something, how'd you do it? You don't "know" how, therefore paradox.

And again, the answer is that consciousness does not have any clear cut and objective correlation to the brain processing that produces it. Its abstraction on a high level. It's counter-intuitive because you're trying to evaluate your conscious experience THROUGH your conscious experience.

 

[voidx]

None of these.
It was a conscious choice to somehow activate my memory, and to do it in an incredibly specific way.
I could have consciously chosen to remember millions of things, but I chose one. And within a split second it was there in my consciousness. Quite an impressive feat. All of which I did easily without knowing how I did it.

You seem to be making the mistake that consciousness sits out in front of normal brain processing. This is what I called you on before. Conscious choice activates your memory, it causes the activation of memory. You don't know that for certain. Sensory input is detected and acted upon by the brain before is necessarily consciously aware.

Your brain is constantly looking for patterns within sensory input. It may have already been working through memory recall before you ever consciously pondered, "What was the first school I ever attended?"

 

[Locknar]

None of these.
It was a conscious choice to somehow activate my memory, and to do it in an incredibly specific way.
I could have consciously chosen to remember millions of things, but I chose one. And within a split second it was there in my consciousness. Quite an impressive feat. All of which I did easily without knowing how I did it.

Memory recall is hardly a "conscious choice"; if that were so one could willingly choose to remember items or not, or delete memories in their entirety.

Your lack of understand wrt memory (ie. autonomic functions) is hardly the basis for a paradox, let alone the broader discussion wrt consciousness (which seems to be your real intent here).

 

[this charming man]

plumjam, how would you describe a color to a person that has been completely blind his or her entire life?

 

[-Fran-]

Now, please try to explain how you did that.

I looked out the window... I live just across the road from it...

 

[Locknar]

I looked out the window... I live just across the road from it...

Best answer EVER!

 

[plumjam]

Your question really has nothing to do with memory recollection. It basically boils down to, when you think about something, how'd you do it? You don't "know" how, therefore paradox.

yeah, it applies to all conscious activity. I just used the memory example to illustrate it to people using their own noggins.

And again, the answer is that consciousness does not have any clear cut and objective correlation to the brain processing that produces it.

If something produces something, shouldn't the somethings have some kind of correlation?

Its abstraction on a high level.

I would assume that abstraction on a high level is happening simultaneously in many strands within the mind. How is it that we can focus consciousness on one particular strand, and then jump to another strand? How do we do that?
And if it's the abstraction on a high level producing the consciousness surely we should be simultaneously conscious of all strands of high level abstraction.

It's counter-intuitive because you're trying to evaluate your conscious experience THROUGH your conscious experience.

How else could I evaluate anything?

 

[Psi Baba]

Maybe I can clarify by creating a scenario.

An alien (who understands English automatically) has just arrived in your living room. He has all the mental apparatus necessary for memory.. but it just so happens that he hasn't consciously accessed his memory yet. In his memory is stored the experience of his journey to Earth.
As he doesn't know how to access his memory he figures he'll ask for your help, to train him how to do it.
After all, for you, accessing your memory is as easy as falling off a log. You've been doing it all your life.

So what would you say to him to train him how to access his memory of the journey?

It's easy. You just ask him, "How did you get here?" or "How was your trip?" "Did you take the new hyperspace bypass?" If he doesn't spontaneously recall his journey, what do you supposed would happen to him? Would his head explode? If his brain functions in a way completely different to ours, then the question is moot anyway.

 

[Matt the Poet]

Yet you also make conscious decisions. In choosing one path of action over others you did something. You know you did it, you know how to do it.. you just have no idea how you did it.
But not knowing how you did it won't affect you being able to do it again and again and again.

Not necessarily, by any means. As I’ve pointed out in other threads on free will, you can argue there is no way of distinguishing between ‘making a conscious decision’ and ‘feeling as though I’ve made a conscious decision’. It’s difficult, actually, to talk about this viewpoint because we so casually use the vocabulary of consciousness, selfhood and will that actually begs enormous questions. Lets have a go, though:

As far as I can see I am, as I say, a sequence of chemical reactions. These chemical reactions as a whole generate some sort of self aware substructure which I call ‘me’ – most of which appears to be driven by the matter inside my skull which provides ‘me’ with a variety of sensations that correspond to certain actions that ‘I’ appear to take. Some of these reactions appear to create an additional sensation which is by convention labelled ‘will’ or ‘intent’.

The best way of expressing this particular sensation is to say that I feel as though I could, in identical circumstances, have done otherwise. However, in the absence of a time machine I can never verify such an assertion, and indeed in order for it to be true there would have to be something very, very special indeed about it – something that violates everything we know about the way objects in the world works. So it seems unlikely that our mysterious ‘intent’ sensation is anything different from a rather specialised kind of twinge.

 

[plumjam]

Memory recall is hardly a "conscious choice"; if that were so one could willingly choose to remember items or not, or delete memories in their entirety.

It can be. For example please choose between recalling one of the following:
1. a time you really hurt yourself as a child
2. losing your virginity

(I just hope they weren't the same occasion )

or, a better example:
1. how old you were at the end of the millenium
2. the last phone number of yours before the present one

You certainly can choose to remember items. Such as consciously deciding to commit someone's address to your memory.

 

[plumjam]

plumjam, how would you describe a color to a person that has been completely blind his or her entire life?

I'll go further.
I'd have no idea how to describe a colour even to a sighted person.
Sure, I could say "it's purple, my love". That's fine as far as it goes.. but then if she persists and asks me what purple is I'd have no clue how to enlighten her in any meaningful way.

Your blind example, would be even more difficult.
Where's this going?

 

[plumjam]

It’s only a paradox if you believe that it’s different from any other physical event. As far as I’m concerned, what happens when I remember my first school is a sequence of chemical reactions – different only in external effect from what happens when I digest food, go running, watch a film, fall in love etc. etc.,

This is because everything I am is a sequence of chemical reactions. There really isn’t a more accurate way to describe it than that.

Do chemical factories have their own consciousness then?
If not, what is special about the particular chemical reactions going on with you that make you conscious?
Why would some chemical reactions bring about a mysterious thing like consciousness, while other chemical reactions do not?

 

[Matt the Poet]

Do chemical factories have their own consciousness then?
If not, what is special about the particular chemical reactions going on with you that make you conscious?
Why would some chemical reactions bring about a mysterious thing like consciousness, while other chemical reactions do not?

For the same reason that some chemical reactions bring about a mysterious thing like nylon, whereas other chemical reactions do not.

The thing that's 'special' is the combination, not the reactions themselves.

 

[plumjam]

For the same reason that some chemical reactions bring about a mysterious thing like nylon, whereas other chemical reactions do not.

The thing that's 'special' is the combination, not the reactions themselves.

yeah, but nylon is a physical thing that can be measured.. whereas consciousness is not.
if certain chemical reactions produce consciousness it ought to be possible to isolate the particular reactions, put them together in a big laboratory experiment and create an absolutely massive consciousness.

 

[Locknar]

It can be. For example please choose between recalling one of the following:
1. a time you really hurt yourself as a child
2. losing your virginity

(I just hope they weren't the same occasion )

or, a better example:
1. how old you were at the end of the millenium
2. the last phone number of yours before the present one

You certainly can choose to remember items. Such as consciously deciding to commit someone's address to your memory.

You are confusing "prompts" with conscious effort; if I ask you "what did you have for dinner last night" or "what is your phone number"...you can't help but remember.

As with any computer (and the brain is simply a biological one), recalling long stored, or say vast amounts of, information can take time...and some information becomes irretrievably lost (for any number of reasons).

Simple fact is memory is nothing more then a autonomic function, and not a paradox nor does it have anything to do with ones consciousness.