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Memes: Protoscience or Pseudoscience?

Jeff Corey said:
Paradigm, another fashionable term for what used to be called a "school". But I would like to know what valuable new perspective I would get out of calling an idea a meme.
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For the same reason you wouldn't just refer to a gene as 'a nucelotide sequence'. With the term gene comes a sense of behaviours and interactions that is not present in the term 'nucleotide sequence', just as meme refers to more than just an idea.

The evolutionary stresses which can influence the changes, proliferation or extinction of a single idea throughout a community is connoted in the term meme, where an idea implies simply a concept created by a single entity. The term draws parallels between evolving systems which encourages us to explore how we can use, say, genetics to better understand the evolution of a culturally learned unit.

Language can be problematic if jargon terms are used to isolate other parties or no longer mean what they are supposed to. But coining a new term to better define a concept can often be useful if that concept has connotations that didn't exist before.

Athon
 
Wowbagger said:
So, they not only change, but can do so in ways that can aid or hinder its replication. In other words, there are selection pressures (natural and artificial) that impact ideas, not just physical objects.

It is a useful concept, for thinking about ear worms, fashion trends, folklore, urban legends, artistic methods, and teaching of more practical skills, such as bridge building. Oh, and also religion. I have yet to find a better explanation for how it spreads.
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And the explanation is? That's the part that doesn't strike me as compelling. Certain ideas are held by a group and they seem to work. When they are clearly not working, they suffer extinction (in the operant sense).
Religion, on the other hand, seems to violate this.
And wlf is an ear worm? Is it similar to a Babel fish?
 
Jeff Corey said:
And the explanation is? That's the part that doesn't strike me as compelling. Certain ideas are held by a group and they seem to work. When they are clearly not working, they suffer extinction (in the operant sense).
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I think the reason why you don't see where religion fits is because your definition is a little too basic.

An idea serves a purpose. If that purpose is served, it remains until a better concept replaces it. For instance, a variation in the spelling of a word might suit a population as it better reflects their accent. Or, as the case was in England in past centuries, a variation in spelling demonstrated that the author of the word was influenced by a continental education (hence, demonstrating that the person was well travelled). Such 'Francasized' spellings therefore became more popular than other versions as the person's position is society was perceived as higher.

Religion serves a purpose of comfort in the face of uncertainty (indeed, false or not, it's the sense that is important). Singificantly, it ties communities together with a common set of morals and beliefs. Since we are more influenced by social thinking than we are by critical thinking, various forms of religion flourish over that of science.

And wlf is an ear worm? Is it similar to a Babel fish?
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An 'ear worm' is a sound, string of words or a melody that persists in the mind when the sound is no longer being heard. Like those bloody annoying Eurovision songs...

Athon
 
The problem, Corey, is that you already think of verbal behavior as being subject to selection pressures from the environment, in the form of reinforcement & punishment. So this is a yawn for you. For the people who bought the whole "cognitive revolution--behaviorism is dead" meme, this is a way of approaching the matter without admitting they were wrong.

[only partially facetious...]
 
athon said:
An 'ear worm' is a sound, string of words or a melody that persists in the mind when the sound is no longer being heard. Like those bloody annoying Eurovision songs...

Athon
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Aw, man, I love Eurovision...

"We are the winners...of Eurovision"... Now that will be stuck in my "mind" for the rest of the evening. Thank you!
 
Jeff Corey said:
And the explanation is? That's the part that doesn't strike me as compelling. Certain ideas are held by a group and they seem to work. When they are clearly not working, they suffer extinction (in the operant sense).
Religion, on the other hand, seems to violate this.
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How does religion seem to violate this? Your field of psychology has informed economics in part by demonstrating the varieties of ways in which people aren't always rational self-interest maximizing agents. Widespread religions seem to prey on those aspects of people for the propagation of the religion very effectively.
 
athon said:
...An 'ear worm' is a sound, string of words or a melody that persists in the mind when the sound is no longer being heard. Like those bloody annoying Eurovision songs...

Athon
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There ought to be a whole range of ear worms, then, ranging from, "Oh, no, it's Mr. Sluggo", to "Stairway to Heaven" to Alfred Bester's, "Tenser said the censor, censor said the tensor, tension, apprehension and dissention have begun." (from The Demolished Man, derived from a Mark Twain story about a dittie that people could not get out of their head.)
Cute term. So why is it a meme?
 
Jeff Corey said:
Religion, on the other hand, seems to violate this.
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Think, Corey, it's basic behaviorism...

We do not reinforce a person; we reinforce a behavior. Same with punishment. The analysis is not based on the person (or organism) but on his, her, or its behavior; indeed, reinforcement and punishment are defined by their effect upon rate of behavior, not by how the organism feels. This is precisely what "memes" give us. Natural selection (or operant conditioning) working on the verbal behavior rather than the organism. It is not a matter of what is good for the organism, but what behavior is reinforced; social traps show us that short-term reinforcement can lead to long-term catastrophe. The behavior is being selected for, not the organism. Same with memes. Religion can be selected for, even at some considerable expense of individual organisms. In the long term, an attractive but deadly meme does not last, but it certainly controls in the short term!
 
To summarize Mercutio's point: Memes replicate based on their ability to be replicated, not on their usefulness (practical or otherwise) to us.

The spread of religion benefits the meme, not necessarily its host.

Just like a brain fluke in an ant: If an ant gets this certain brain fluke infection, it starts trying to climb up a blade of grass. Why? Not for the benefit of the ant, that's for sure! But, for the benefit of the fluke: It reproduces better in the stomach of a cow. So, the fluke adapted the ability to encourage itself to try to get eaten by a cow, should it end up infecting an ant.

Memes spread religion, not to the benefit of the people who follow religion, but for the benefit of the meme's own survival. Scary, but the model works reasonably well, I think.
 
So memes are not tacts, nor mands, they seem to function as autoclitics. Sort of.
 
Jeff Corey said:
There ought to be a whole range of ear worms, then, ranging from, "Oh, no, it's Mr. Sluggo", to "Stairway to Heaven" to Alfred Bester's, "Tenser said the censor, censor said the tensor, tension, apprehension and dissention have begun." (from The Demolished Man, derived from a Mark Twain story about a dittie that people could not get out of their head.)
Cute term. So why is it a meme?
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Indeed, there are a whole range of 'ear worms'. China Mieville has a neat little short story on ear worms, which kill.

It's a culturally inherted unit. If it is spread in an accomdating environment, and it is by its nature adequately contagious, then it will spread through repitition. Calling it a meme insinuates the selection pressures such a string of words (and its social associations) has on its propagation.

Athon
 
Autoclitics. Seriously, it has been over a decade since I have heard that term. If it were a more successful meme...

Never mind.
 
I tried to explain it as putting words together to make a point that others could understand, if not necessarily agree with. A connected series of discourse you put together to make a point and make sense to your audience. Much of the preparation for it could be covert (rehearsing to yourself) or practicing with others,
 
Rule-governed behavior, Corey. The whole operant is expressed. People can follow via Pliance or Tracking. Either way, the rule (meme) is propogated.

The vocabulary is different, but the idea is the same...
 
But there is a distinction between rule governed behavior and contingency governed behavior, as I understand it. "The rule's a tool, could fool."
 
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Yes, of course--RGB is insensitive to changes in contingencies...leads to exactly the sort of thing you mentioned: : "religion, on the other hand, seems to violate this".

ETA: when we are reinforced for following rules, we get pliance...
 
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