Medium to the Stars?

[Pixel42]

The whole "hot reading" thing is over-blown and I would suggest no one could practically use it to conduct a reading. The time to research it alone would make it financially impractical.

One commonly used trick is planting people in the audience who get information by striking up conversations before the performance (I'm hoping to hear from my late husband, how about you). Another I heard about from a tell all book was a guy who kept all the letters he got from fans asking for messages from deceased loved ones, and then sent free tickets to those who lived in the towns where he was doing his shows. It really isn't difficult to gather information about the sort of people who are gullible enough to go to such shows.

 

[the Sphinx]

Edited by zooterkin: 

<SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.

The TV show isn't the evidence. The evidence comes from all the things that are inferred in order to produce such a show. The fraud on so many levels by so many people and no one comes forward. The references that are accepted by the person being read. Statistically impossible things.

 

[Resume]

It is also possible Henry and the 80 man TV crew are engaged in an elaborate fraud, good enough to fool industry executives--that certainly is possible. Unlikely for a 20 year old. Non-college kid. He must have incredible research abilities.

Jesus H Christ, you still don't get it. The crew, the producers, the executives don't give a flying **** about anything but ad revenue. If some mentalist can help provide that, who cares? Reality TV shows do not reflect reality; they reflect what their focus groups tell them.

 

[Resume]

Edited by zooterkin: 

<SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.

The TV show isn't the evidence.

No, a heavily produced, edited and marketed TV show featuring a mentalist is evidence of anything other than some people will believe anything. Even parlor tricks.

You know what would be evidence? A claimed psychic medium anywhere passing a properly controlled test.

 

[the Sphinx]

One commonly used trick is planting people in the audience who get information by striking up conversations before the performance (I'm hoping to hear from my late husband, how about you). Another I heard about from a tell all book was a guy who kept all the letters he got from fans asking for messages from deceased loved ones, and then sent free tickets to those who lived in the towns where he was doing his shows. It really isn't difficult to gather information about the sort of people who are gullible enough to go to such shows.

Can you point to a single individual who has been able to make a living by planting accomplices in an audience? How insanely expensive and difficult would that be? You'd have to find lobby wanders who could keep a vast array of details straight all from a brief conversation.

How much information could you obtain in the 15 minutes you have in a lobby? When we the last time you were at a Broadway show? No one stands in the lobby before a show, you take your seat when you arrive. I've been to a Henry show; my sister was at a Theresa C show (I declined to attend), and neither of us spent any time in a lobby and neither of us were questioned by strangers.

Imagine I'm sitting in the first few rows of a theater and some unknown lady approaches to ask me questions before the show about my Dad and what color was our house did we go to movies together and so on. You don't think it would be obvious what is going on? You think that could work? You could base a reading on that? Really?

 

[Myriad]

Right now I'm sitting in a room with a small box (for real) and in that box is something that is precious to me from my deceased father. There isn't any way on God's earth you could "hot read" what is in the box. Henry can.

That's correct. Henry is likely to be able to hot read what is in the box because he can ask you, as a fan of the show, to do him a solid, tell him in advance what's in the box, all the better to convince the audience that he's really genuine, like you already know he is but sometimes the spirits' eyesight isn't so good and they can't quite make out what it is even though they think it's shiny and a little worn and not worth a lot of money. And in return he can include you on a segment of the show being amazed when he identifies it correctly. That might not sound very tempting, but imagine if you were a minor celebrity; that would make you not only a fan but a professional entertainer doing a favor for another, and the exposure of an appearance on the show would be much more valuable to you.

There's no way abbadon would be able to do any of that. You're not his fan! And he has no TV show!

 

[Resume]

How much information could you obtain in the 15 minutes you have in a lobby?

Ask Peter Popoff and his wife.

 

[Resume]

That's correct. Henry is likely to be able to hot read what is in the box because he can ask you, as a fan of the show, to do him a solid, tell him in advance what's in the box, all the better to convince the audience that he's really genuine, like you already know he is but sometimes the spirits' eyesight isn't so good and they can't quite make out what it is even though they think it's shiny and a little worn and not worth a lot of money. And in return he can include you on a segment of the show being amazed when he identifies it correctly. That might not sound very tempting, but imagine if you were a minor celebrity; that would make you not only a fan but a professional entertainer doing a favor for another, and the exposure of an appearance on the show would be much more valuable to you.

There's no way abbadon would be able to do any of that. You're not his fan! And he has no TV show!

To believe that these mentalists are genuine, you have to ignore human nature, you have to ignore that human beings are prone to lying, cheating, and confirmative biases.

 

[Pixel42]

Women in particular chat in the queue outside the theatre, in the queue for the loos. It only needs one or two to confide a few details to a (seemingly) sympathetic fellow fan. And one or two who've written beforehand telling the 'medium' all about their lost loved one.

There are plenty of books that detail these tricks.

 

[the Sphinx]

>>You know what would be evidence? A claimed psychic medium anywhere passing a properly controlled test.

But you can't get that for reasons already explained. Henry would have to be crazy to submit to that. John Edwards submitted to a research team in AZ and he passed. Nothing changed. Scientists who buck the system, who come with something that changes the world view, don't get heard. They get ridiculed. Right now there is ample evidence from the TV show. An interview with the Execs who fund it might be a first place to start.

When Alvarez was tested by research paper in 1960 or Wegener in 1940, the scientific community got back what the scientific community wanted to believe. Now think about trying to establish inner experiences, how much more difficult that would be.

What you can do, since it is so easy, is produce some evidence for your claims that Henry does hot and cold readings. People in some non-existent lobby asking questions of strangers for a hot reading and other claims. Can you point me to a lobby where people gather evidence for the hot readers?

 

[Myriad]

What you can do, since it is so easy, is produce some evidence for your claims that Henry does hot and cold readings. People in some non-existent lobby asking questions of strangers for a hot reading and other claims. Can you point me to a lobby where people gather evidence for the hot readers?

In this particular case, because the show you're a fan of is about readings of celebrities (being cross-promoted from the same family of networks), the most useful lobby is this one. Assuming he doesn't just meet them at parties and production meetings.

 

[the Sphinx]

Ask Peter Popoff and his wife.

I've never heard of Popoff, he's going to have his own national TV show reading people he's never met based on publicly available web information and their facial expressions. I'd love to see this. Can you forward the link?

 

[Wolrab]

Alvarez and Wegener provided evidence.

 

[sackett]

Higher states of consciousness? Old stuff. Blavatski even bored herself with it.

I want to hear about LOWER states of consciousness. Come on, Sphinx. Henry must get in touch with, say, snails sometimes. Or Tories. Maybe that guy across the street who mows his #%×☆¿ lawn at 5 AM.

Goddammit, I want something fresh!

Maybe I'm in the wrong shop?

 

[the Sphinx]

In this particular case, because the show you're a fan of is about readings of celebrities (being cross-promoted from the same family of networks), the most useful lobby is this one. Assuming he doesn't just meet them at parties and production meetings.

Either the entire show is a fraud, reaching up to the highest TV network executive level--people with reputations to protect--and other people on the crew who don't believe but won't come forward to acknowledge people are being used, hundreds of employees over four years OR Henry is likely who he says he is. I don't see the in-between.

The lobby to get information in the 15 minutes you have before everyone is seated as the basis for performing a hot reading keeping all those people and their image straight, for 90 minutes, this is ridiculous.

Every cold reading I've watched, the speech pattern gives it away. The information guessed at is shallow and there is an overload of questions. The "marks" are the most vulnerable people, usually college-age.

All I'm asking, if you are going to make a claim about Henry, provide some evidence for the claim.

 

[Pixel42]

But you can't get that for reasons already explained. Henry would have to be crazy to submit to that.

Because it would show him up for the fraud he is, you mean?

John Edwards submitted to a research team in AZ and he passed. Nothing changed.

I'm not sure if Garry Schwartz never actually learned the scientific method or deliberately chose not to use it in order to sell books to the gullible. Neither possibility reflects well on him. In either case his "tests" (quote marks justified this time) were utterly worthless.

Scientists who buck the system, who come with something that changes the world view, don't get heard.

On the contrary, they get applauded and awarded Nobel prizes. Provided, of course, their papers stand up to scrutiny.

 

[the Sphinx]

>>Blavatski even bored herself with it.

Blavatski never wrote about higher states of consciousness.

 

[Pixel42]

All I'm asking, if you are going to make a claim about Henry, provide some evidence for the claim.

Right back at you, and him.

 

[Resume]

>>You know what would be evidence? A claimed psychic medium anywhere passing a properly controlled test.

Use the quote function properly so I can respond properly.

 

[Resume]

Either the entire show is a fraud, reaching up to the highest TV network executive level--people with reputations to protect--and other people on the crew who don't believe but won't come forward to acknowledge people are being used, hundreds of employees over four years OR Henry is likely who he says he is. I don't see the in-between.

False dilemma.

Argument from personal incredulity.