Meanwhile, in Congo

[Eck]

Corporations are people too. It doesn't seem to me that corporations are central to the problem here. We should also note that corporations and free market economies are why we have such high standards of living in the developed countries. And high standards of living help make it possible for us to be civilized and decent and have resonable levels of security and lower rates of crime.

Generally speaking, I think Congo could use more corporate involvement. The real problem IMO is these armed gangs of criminals, not corporations. Because if there was safety and security, corporations could help raise living standards.

The problem here is that there is already corporate involvement in the DRC, and that to exploit the mineral resources that draw them to the region, they deal with the armed groups involved withthe conflicts, (they have no choice, really). Without oversight from either a strong and noncorrupt state government or some sort of international regime to monitor and control activities and make sure operations aren't supporting actors in the conflict, their actions are not, and won't lead to an increase in living standards or heightened civility in the region.

How to fix this issue is a problem beyond me, though, I sadly don't see it getting better anytime soon.

 

[Gurdur]

But why the endemic violence? I think development could occur if there wasn't so much violence.

Go and read some good history books for once.

How do you stop the violence and establish order?

Go and read some good case studies of longterm conflict amelioration, for once.

Evidence that this God of yours really has grace, plz.

You are simply very lucky that you were not born into a similar situation. Is that now re-formulated to your satisfaction? Can you now understand the long words? Now go away and stop being such an idiot.

 

[Gurdur]

.....Also such artifacts of the days of colonialism. The whole Hutu/Tutsi disaster was created back then, when the colonial overlords first created the divide, ....

This is a commonly heard myth. It isn't true. Try over-population and greatly stretched resources within a very small country instead.

 

[Flo]

Sometimes I find it hard to understand why life is so different in some third-world countries. What is wrong with these people?

Try 4 centuries of their societies being torn apart, their culture and history destroyed and negated, populations being enslaved, deported, and generally treated little better than domestic animals or retarded children, followed by a hasty "decolonisation" at the hands of obedient and corrupt thugs ...

Colonialism was a long time ago. At some point I don't think you can point to that as an excuse anymore.

Colonialism was a mere 40 years ago, and continued under the form of plundering local ressources, fighting the East-West cold war by proxy, with the complicity of local thugs who were permitted to hide the product of their pillaging in fiscal paradises (that are still extremely reluctant - to say the least - to return the loot to the populations that may have some use for it). Besides, how long is too long to invoque the aftermaths of history ?

The current UN presence doesn't seem to be enough to solve the problem.

Have a look at a good map that gives a real idea of the size of the country, and compare with the means allocated to try to pacify the region, ...

Elections don't seem to have helped much.

Elections don't guarantee law, order, and security.

What to do?

Keep wringing one's hands, asking "what's wrong with those people, colonisation has been over for ages", and drape oneself in one's self-righteousness

 

[Puppycow]

Go and read some good history books for once.

Go and read some good case studies of longterm conflict amelioration, for once.

You are simply very lucky that you were not born into a similar situation. Is that now re-formulated to your satisfaction? Can you now understand the long words? Now go away and stop being such an idiot.

Someone woke up on the wrong side of bed.

 

[fuelair]

I blame Lisa. Bush has no Idea how to find Congo on a Map.

Put Shrub on "Dancing with theSort-of-Celebrities" - in a Congo line!!

 

[Gurdur]

Someone woke up on the wrong side of bed.

No, it's simply I cannot stand people who are ignorant out of laziness, who are born privileged, but who then pour their uncomprehending scorn on those less fortunate than themselves, who have zero grasp of history despite all their advantages, and who cannot even understand short simple sentences.

I hope that's clear enough. I can try monosyllabics next.

 

[Puppycow]

Try 4 centuries of their societies being torn apart, their culture and history destroyed and negated, populations being enslaved, deported, and generally treated little better than domestic animals or retarded children, followed by a hasty "decolonisation" at the hands of obedient and corrupt thugs ...


Colonialism was a mere 40 years ago, and continued under the form of plundering local ressources, fighting the East-West cold war by proxy, with the complicity of local thugs who were permitted to hide the product of their pillaging in fiscal paradises (that are still extremely reluctant - to say the least - to return the loot to the populations that may have some use for it). Besides, how long is too long to invoque the aftermaths of history ?

I'm sure all that matters, but it still doesn't seem sufficient to explain the whole problem.
I don't think it was like some kind of paradise before Europeans arrived. Anthropological studies of stone-age people show that all of them were basically savages. I think what preceded European involvement was inter-tribe violence like you see today (if not, they probably would have been better able to resist the European colonialists, if there had been any unity.

Paradalis's link says that:

The Congolese people are made up of around 200 separate ethnic groups. These ethnic groups generally are concentrated regionally and speak distinct languages. There is no majority ethnic group - some of the largest ethnic groups are the Luba, Kongo and Anamongo. The various ethnic groups speak many different languages but only four indigenous languages have official status - Kiswahili, Lingala, Kikongo and Tshiluba. French is the language of government, commerce and education. Societal discrimination on the basis of ethnicity is widely practiced by members of virtually all ethnic groups and is evident in private hiring and buying patterns and in patterns of de facto ethnic segregation in some cities. In large cities, however, intermarriage across ethnic and regional divides is common.

Have a look at a good map that gives a real idea of the size of the country, and compare with the means allocated to try to pacify the region, ...

Elections don't guarantee law, order, and security.

Keep wringing one's hands, asking "what's wrong with those people, colonisation has been over for ages", and drape oneself in one's self-righteousness

I suppose you are correct about that. Would it be better to just ignore it like most? I didn't think I was being self-righteous, but perhaps you are right. It's safer to simply ignore it, because if you're not involved then nobody can blame you, right?

 

[fagin]

A disturbing story about an epidemic of rape and violence in Congo.

Sometimes I find it hard to understand why life is so different in some third-world countries. What is wrong with these people? Colonialism was a long time ago. At some point I don't think you can point to that as an excuse anymore. The current UN presence doesn't seem to be enough to solve the problem. Elections don't seem to have helped much. What to do?

Anyone read Lord of the Flies. The veneer of civilisation is pretty thin.

 

[fagin]

Have a look at a good map that gives a real idea of the size of the country, and compare with the means allocated to try to pacify the region, ...

Too true. And a lot of it is real equatorial jungle. A certain times of the year travel in these areas is almost impossible by road.

 

[Flo]

I'm sure all that matters, but it still doesn't seem sufficient to explain the whole problem.
I don't think it was like some kind of paradise before Europeans arrived. Anthropological studies of stone-age people show that all of them were basically savages. I think what preceded European involvement was inter-tribe violence like you see today (if not, they probably would have been better able to resist the European colonialists, if there had been any unity.

Ah, goody, another version of the old myth of Africa being peopled with stone-age savages fighting each others before civilization reached them, and who have reverted to their innate savagery as soon as the Europeans left them to their own devices
Of course, colonisators having firearms and basically wiping out whole villages, towns, and cities as they went up the Congo river couldn't explain the lack of resistance of the populations ... Please, inform yourself on the history of the colonisation of Africa before spouting racist stupidities.

I suppose you are correct about that. Would it be better to just ignore it like most? I didn't think I was being self-righteous, but perhaps you are right. It's safer to simply ignore it, because if you're not involved then nobody can blame you, right?

There's a difference between being preoccuped by this sorry mess and spouting tired, ignorant, and bigoted clichés

 

[Flo]

Anyone read Lord of the Flies. The veneer of civilisation is pretty thin.

Too true. Rape and looting have always accompanied armies the world over, and even the most modern and civilized countries have a hard time enforcing decent rules of conducts at all time (see Abu Graib ...).

 

[Puppycow]

No, it's simply I cannot stand people who are ignorant out of laziness

Ignorant out of laziness? I don't know everything about the world, but I think I know more about world affairs than most. I don't know everything you know, but I'll bet I know plenty that you don't, too. Do you speak a foreign language? Have you ever lived in a foreign country?

who are born privileged, but who then pour their uncomprehending scorn on those less fortunate than themselves, who have zero grasp of history despite all their advantages, and who cannot even understand short simple sentences.

I hope that's clear enough. I can try monosyllabics next.

I read history too.
What I hear you saying is that I should feel guilty for history. Look, people evolved from animals. In fact we are all simply animals. Clever, but animals evolved through natural selection. That's the lens I look at history through. When I look at history, I see that people have been butchering and raping each other on every coner of the globe for all of history and before going back to our hominid ancestors. Every human alive is descended from murderers and rapists because those are the animals that were strong enough to survive. The strong ate the weak. Strong clans killed and enslaved weaker clans. Strong tribes killed and enslaved weaker tribes, and finally strong nations killed and enslaved weaker nations. Civilization is entirely new. It is the exception rather than the rule. I think what we see in Congo is what it used to be like everywhere. So maybe I shouldn't have said "what's wrong with these people?" but I think I do know a little about history, even if I don't see it through your lens. We can agree on the facts but still see things from a different perspective. You don't have to be insulting.

 

[Fnord]

You guys certainly have a short memory for the 8 years the Republican leadership and the right wing NeoCons promoted blaming Clinton for anything and everything.

Bush is not to blame for this tragedy which has been going on for decades, but he did contribute to making it worse and did nothing to make it better. (SNIP)

Good points, and many more besides. Reminds me of a joke...

A dictator came to power after a bloody coup. His new assistant came to him with two envelopes. "Read this one first," he said.

So the dictator opens the first envelope.

"To whom it may concern, Congratulations on taking the reins of power. I hope that your skills at running the country far exceed you skills at taking it from me. The first thing you must do, after all the dust has settled, is to blame everything on me. Read the second letter only when things inevitably fall apart."

So the new dictator does just that, and to great effect. The people look to him for their hope and salvation. Icons of the old regime are destroyed, and new ones take their places. The old dictator's name takes on the power of high profanity. For a while, there is a car in every garage and a chicken in every pot. Life is good.

After a while, the people yearn for more. True, thier bellies are full, but there is only so much chicken you can eat and so many ways to prepare it. The cars are starting to break down, too. The people look across their borders and see their enemies eating steak and driving brand-new cars. They become disgruntled.

The dictator starts making promises that he can't keep, and the people know this. They demonstrate, and get arrested and sent to the gulag. This leads to more demonstrations, more arrests, and eventually, violence and death.

Then the people revolt. As the mob surrounds the palace, and batter the front gate. The assistant approaches the dictator.

"It is time, your Excellency."

"Of course. Hand me the second letter. It should have instructions on how to excape the mob."

With trembling hands, the dictator opens the second envelope and readsthe words that will deliver his hide from the unruly mob.

"Prepare two letters."

 

[Darth Rotor]

According to victims, one of the newest groups to emerge is called the Rastas, a mysterious gang of dreadlocked fugitives who live deep in the forest, wear shiny track suits and Los Angeles Lakers jerseys and are notorious for burning babies, kidnapping women and literally chopping up anybody who gets in their way.

I was going to make a joke about the movie "Gangs of New York" but thought better of it.

UN officials said that the Rastas were once part of the Hutu militias who fled Rwanda after committing genocide there in 1994, but now it seems they have split off on their own and specialize in freelance cruelty

I suppose that their market share is trending up, which will no doubt please their board of directors.

DR

 

[Elind]

Endemic grinding poverty, limited resources and violence. There but for the grace of God go you. Learn something and get over yourself.

The actual post was concerning why that is so. The only thing you contributed, negatively, was the part of limited resources, which is not the case for much of Africa, nor the Congo.

 

[Gurdur]

The actual post was concerning why that is so. The only thing you contributed, negatively, was the part of limited resources, which is not the case for much of Africa, nor the Congo.

Oh look: it's Elind, with nothing at all to contribute, and of course deeply ignorant. I guess you missed the part, Elind, where I pointed out that resources are not easily accessible to poor villagers, but since we know what your POV is anyway, why don't you simply buzz off?

 

[Elind]

Oh look: it's Elind, with nothing at all to contribute, and of course deeply ignorant. I guess you missed the part, Elind, where I pointed out that resources are not easily accessible to poor villagers, but since we know what your POV is anyway, why don't you simply buzz off?

I should be given a medal for trying to explain so little so often.

The fundamental question IS; why they are still violent, ignorant, poor and so on, long after colonial days?

You have stated the obvious premise twice now. How about addressing the question behind it?

 

[Gurdur]

I should be given a medal for trying to explain so little so often.
The fundamental question IS; why they are still violent, ignorant, poor and so on, long after colonial days?
You have stated the obvious premise twice now. How about addressing the question behind it?

No, the fundamental question is why YOU are so deeply prejudiced and ignorant. You have contributed nothing beyond letting us know of your nasty little stupid prejudices; you know nothing of the place and you know nothing of the history. So, again, shut up and buzz off.

 

[fuelair]

Anyone read Lord of the Flies. The veneer of civilisation is pretty thin.

Skipping that LotF is fiction, your point is correct. Which may or may not be a point involving Colonialism.
As an added note, would not have mattered
much if Africa had been less involved in tribal warfare, technology would have done it anyway even with the idiots who allowed the massacre at Isandlwana. Nobody, it seems, could turn sure victory into raging defeat like the British. Of course, on the same day some later there was Rorke's Drift(see Zulu) which went quite as it (and Isandlwana) should have gone.