Me vs Joe Rogan: the Magic Bullet Theory

[Jonnyclueless]

Wow, 2008 and people still believe in the JFK conspiracy theories? Seriously? It's like finding a grown up who still believes in Santa Claus.

 

[applecorped]

Wow, 2008 and people still believe in the JFK conspiracy theories? Seriously? It's like finding a grown up who still believes in Santa Claus.

[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono] Yes, VIRGINIA, there is a Santa Claus. He exists as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy. Alas! how dreary would be the world if there were no Santa Claus.[/FONT]

 

[thesyntaxera]

The History Channel used Dale Myer's excellent computer simulation to demonstrate the same thing.

That was the program I was thinking of...thanks for the info.

 

[EventHorizon]

Wow, I haven't posted here in a while--look how irrelevant my avatar is!

RRRRRRAAAAMMMOONN!! GET THAT CANKLED FREAK OUT OF YOUR AVATAR!!!!


/me hopes your screen name is a reference to what he thinks it is or this post makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[CurtC]

The "Impossible to get off three shot in five seconds with a Bolt Action Rifle" claim should be enough to tell you the Keneddy CTers do not know what the hell they are talking about.

Even more so since the time between the first and third shots was almost nine seconds.

 

[EventHorizon]

You should also point out the inaccuracy of that diagram. Connally wasn't sitting directly in front of Kennedy (he was farther to the left) and he wasn't facing directly forward at the time of the shot (he was twisted to his right a little). It also seems that the angle shown for the shot is wrong too.

And there's one other thing you should bring up. He seems to be implying that the bullet was planted on the stretcher. Well, what if during the investigation at Dealey plaza, 3 bullets are found. Oops. Conspiracy blown wide open. Whoever would have planted the bullet could not have known how many bullets would be found at the scene of the crime.

 

[Jonnyclueless]

And let's see someone do a recreation with a gun man in the grassy knoll, or whatever the crackpot conspiracy says happened, and see if the bullet ends up in the exact same condition as seems to be the requirement of the CTer.

Also don't really understand the planted bullet argument. The CT argument is that there were more than 3 shots (or at least 3 by more than one person), so how does planting a bullet help? Shouldn't someone have instead stolen a bullet, not plant one?

 

[CurtC]

I asked David Lifton on the Compuserve Conspiracy Forum many years ago how that itty-bitty bullet moved that big man so far. He had no response.

That is a key point that the CT folks overlook. You should expect momentum from a shot to the front and right would move just his head, move it very suddenly, and then immediately start slowing down, because a bullet doesn't actually carry that much momentum.

Kennedy's back-and-to-the-left movement seems to be led by his torso, and has very much momentum. I agree the muscular spasm explanation seems to be the best fit. Further, the frame of the head shot and immediately after, show some movement of the head forward before the back/left motion starts, indicating a shot from the rear.

One more thing, a shot from the front/right should make a large exit wound in the head on the rear/left, not the front/right splatter we see. Bullets make small entry holes and large exit holes. The whole "shot from the front/right" idea just has too many contradictions, it's a shame it's so widely believed.

 

[I Ratant]

You should also point out the inaccuracy of that diagram. Connally wasn't sitting directly in front of Kennedy (he was farther to the left) and he wasn't facing directly forward at the time of the shot (he was twisted to his right a little). It also seems that the angle shown for the shot is wrong too.

And there's one other thing you should bring up. He seems to be implying that the bullet was planted on the stretcher. Well, what if during the investigation at Dealey plaza, 3 bullets are found. Oops. Conspiracy blown wide open. Whoever would have planted the bullet could not have known how many bullets would be found at the scene of the crime.

.
ANY, and that's ANY, conspiracy book that shows the zig-zag bullet path as the WCR official conclusion can be shut right then and tossed aside.
It's a waste of paper and ink.
.
The Warren Commissioni Report...
Chapter 3..
http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/chapter-3.html#secondmissed

 

[soylent]

My question would be, has anyone recreated a headshot from behind with a high powered rifle that would cause the victim to lurch "back and to the left"...I have been looking for some info on and off all night...can't say I found anything useful.

The momentum of a bullet is actually quite small and most of the momentum transfered to the head will be transfered to the spray of tissue out of the exit wound.

The spray of tissue may cause a weak push backwards towards the shooter as seen in videos of watermelons wrapped in plastic and other gooey objects with a hard shell; but the effect is small. Another likely candidate is a muscle spasm.

I think it was Alvarez who advanced the jet theory.

 

[I Ratant]

I don't care for Alvarez's analysis of the number of shots, relating the "dictabelt tape noises" to the Zapruder film.
He failed to note that some, if not most of the movements he tracks in the film are due to Zapruder's changing stance as the event proceeded... from upright and calm, to crouched and excited by the third shot.
The noises on the dictabelt are merely car doors slamming, picked up by the stuck-open microphone on the 3-wheeler traffic control cycle at the Trade Center.
Here's a composited image of 8 video frames of a high-powered shot thru an unrestrained melon, equivalent to 4 of the Zapruder frames. The lack of motion in any direction is typical of such an event.
And me shooting my Carcano.

 

[thesyntaxera]

The momentum of a bullet is actually quite small and most of the momentum transfered to the head will be transfered to the spray of tissue out of the exit wound.

I am not sure what your experience with firearms is, but the momentum of a high powered rifle round is quite large. As an example look up the effects of a 7.62 round. Your lucky if there is still a head left. The pressure caused by the displacement of air literally explodes whatever it hits. The greater the speed of the bullet, the greater the pressure. I realize that the rifle used in this instance wasn't of the 7.62 caliber...regardless it was still consistant with high powered round. The bullet enters the rear, and then proceeds to explode his head on the front right. There is no reverse pressure that forces the body back. So the explanation remains to be a massive muscle spasm related to having the core of the nervous system blown from it's case.

 

[PhantomWolf]

I don't care for Alvarez's analysis of the number of shots, relating the "dictabelt tape noises" to the Zapruder film.

Well considering that it's been pretty much conclusively proven (the police officer riding the bike confirms it) that the motorbike with the stuck switch was further back in the parade and so wasn't even in dealy plaza at the time of the shooting at all, and thus the recording can't have been of the shooting full stop.

 

[CurtC]

I am not sure what your experience with firearms is, but the momentum of a high powered rifle round is quite large.

Everything is relative, but what do you mean "quite large"? How hard does the rifle kick against your shoulder? That's the momentum of the bullet you're feeling, and it imparts that exact same momentum into the target if the target stops the bullet, otherwise the bullet imparts less momentum than that into the target.

As an example look up the effects of a 7.62 round. Your lucky if there is still a head left.

But that's energy, not momentum.

The pressure caused by the displacement of air literally explodes whatever it hits.

Displacement of air? What? The damage a bullet does to a target is not at all affected by the air pressure it encounters on its way to the target.

The bullet enters the rear, and then proceeds to explode his head on the front right. There is no reverse pressure that forces the body back.

Yes, there can be, and it's due to the difference between momentum and energy. Momentum will always be conserved - the momentum of the bullet before it hits is equal to the momentum of the target plus the momentum of the bullet after it hits. If there's a lot of energy left over to cause a spray of material out the back of the target, the target itself will have to move forward due to conservation of momentum.

In the case of Kennedy's head, the bullet hit it obliquely, causing the spray of matter to be ejected at approximately a right angle to the path of the bullet, and in this case conservation of momentum would dictate that the remaining portion of his head move in the opposite direction from the spray.

So the explanation remains to be a massive muscle spasm related to having the core of the nervous system blown from it's case.

Yes, I think a muscle spasm due to severe neurological trauma is the best explanation for the movement we see.

 

[JoeyDonuts]

Speaking from a somewhat ignorant position (I don't have much experience with bolt-action rifles - I carried an M14 for my riflin' days) It seems to me that for someone to take a whole 8 seconds to get off three shots they would have to be slow, clumsy with firearms, and be quite lethargic at the time...None of which describe Oswald at the time. He was an experienced rifleman, in good physical shape...can't say anything toward the lethargy, though. Maybe he was hopped up on Schnapps and Diazepam.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Well really it's just 2 shots in 8 secs, cause the timer doesn't start till the first is fired, so you only have to reload and fire twice.

 

[JoeyDonuts]

I betcha Bob Dobbs could do it....wait a minute! Maybe he DID!!!

*Insert Law and Order doink-doink noise here*

 

[I Ratant]

Well really it's just 2 shots in 8 secs, cause the timer doesn't start till the first is fired, so you only have to reload and fire twice.

.
But, but, that's not the way Stone did it in JFK!
Start the stopwatch, then tell the shooter to shoot.
The number of things he deliberately misrepresented in that film.... Geez!

 

[I Ratant]

The spray of brain was induced by the temporary wound cavity, which in leaque with JFK's Addison disease, which makes bones brittle, broke the skull wide open.
The bullet came out sideways, hit the chrome strip on the windshield, broke up there, sending most of the fragments into the right side of the front seat area in the limo, and a fragment going over the windshield to hit Tague near the underpass.
The "Harper fragment" of skull can be seen shooting up into the air in Z-313 and 314.
The attached.. the drawing is from my full-size Dealey Plaza AutoCad file, the photo from a test I did with several weapons for curb damage.
The curb damage noted near where Tague was standing was not done by a bullet. It's too extensive! It was most likely done by a wheel weight on a car wheel rim, as the FBI surmised!
Another one of those tests the CTwinkies couldn't be bothered to do!

 

[soylent]

I am not sure what your experience with firearms is, but the momentum of a high powered rifle round is quite large.

Only numbers and videos.

As an example look up the effects of a 7.62 round.

Ok.

I choose 7.62x51mm NATO, that seems like a standard round; mass 9.5 grams, speed 850 m/s. That's a momentum of only 8 kgm/s(that's pretty close to the 7 kgm/s Oswalds bullet would have had right at the muzzle of the rifle).

If that bullet zips through a 4kg head that is initially at rest and imparts 10% of its momentum to it; the resulting speed of the head would be only 0.2 m/s( 0.7 feet/sec); barely noticable.

10% is quite possibly an overestimate as there are videos of various tighly plastic wrapped gooey objects being both pushed forwards and pushed backwards towards the shooter, in either case with very little momentum imparted.

Your lucky if there is still a head left. The pressure caused by the displacement of air literally explodes whatever it hits.

You seem to be confusing energy and momentum.

The 8 kgm/s momentum of the 7.62x51mm NATO round is the same as that of a 80 kg human moving at 0.1 m/s; but the 3.4 kj energy of the same bullet corresponds the energy of a human moving at 9 m/s.