McCarthy. Withhunter, or Winter Patriot, you decide.

[rikzilla]

Maxist lead? Now you're asserting that war critics are lead by international communism, Senator McCarthy?

This really deserves it's own thread; but have you ever heard of Venona? I would have missed it myself had I not read The Red Spy Queen.

Venona was a secret NSA evesdropping program targeting the Soviet Union. Elizabeth Bentley was a Soviet spy who turned herself in to the FBI. It was Elizabeth Bentley who provided the initial evidence that McCarthy used in HUAC. All of Bentley's information was corroborated by the Venona intercepts...but if the FBI had provided the Venona evidence to HUAC the whole Venona program would have been made public and compromised. It was deemed more important for the FBI to continue Venona than to prosecute these Soviet moles within gov't. The moles were removed from their jobs by the allegations of spying; so the threat was neutralized. National Security did not dictate that these spies be successfully prosecuted.

McCarthy was demonized for his fanatic zeal and alcohol abuse...but he was mostly demonized for his "red-baiting" without evidence. Yet this last bit; "red baiting without evidence"; was bogus. Venona; which was declassified in the mid-90's; provides the evidence to back up HUAC allegations against Harry Dexter White, David Greenglass, and many more including the Rosenbergs.

Three closely spaced counterintelligence events involving or affecting VENONA occurred in 1945. First, the FBI carefully questioned Whittaker Chambers, whose earlier efforts to disclose details of his involvement in Soviet espionage in the United States in the 1930s had gone unheeded. While not directly bearing on VENONA, Chambersís testimony helped bring Soviet espionage into focus at the FBI. Second, Elizabeth Bentley, a veteran KGB courier and auxiliary agent handler, went to the FBI and named names of government employees passing documents to the Soviets. VENONA messages verified much of what Bentley disclosed. Third, Igor Gouzenko, a GRU code clerk, defected in Ottawa. Gouzenko's revelations were important to Allied counterintelligence efforts, although they did not directly assist breakthroughs into the VENONA system.

So...kind of a thread derail...but the facts are that McCarthy has been unfairly tarred throughout recent history. The VENONA disclosures bear out the fact that there were many well placed and active Soviet spies imbedded in the US govenment.

My mentioning that many of Cindy Sheehan's "friends" in MoveOn, ANSWER, etc are communist is not "red baiting" or "McCarthyism" it is simple fact.

-z

 

[Cleon]

Rik, you never fail to disappoint me.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

It's hard to equate a rather large systematic intelligence breakdown with the deliberate co-opting of a grieving not-too-bright mom by the organs of the Marxist-led anti-war movement. It's simply not the same thing.
-z

So...kind of a thread derail...but the facts are that McCarthy has been unfairly tarred throughout recent history. The VENONA disclosures bear out the fact that there were many well placed and active Soviet spies imbedded in the US govenment.

My mentioning that many of Cindy Sheehan's "friends" in MoveOn, ANSWER, etc are communist is not "red baiting" or "McCarthyism" it is simple fact.

-z

Even a blind pig will occasionally find a truffle. A handful of "well placed and active Soviet spies" does not a world wide conspiracy amoungst the leaders of war protesters make.

May I belabor the obvious by pointing out that there is no Soviet Union today, and the most frightening communist boggeyman which can be conjured with is Cuba, where they drive 50's era American cars, and have more classic Americana that we do.

Communists in America not automatically traitors, nor protesters, nor white nor black. Rikzilla, when you hear hoofbeats, do you look for red-and-white stripped-conspiratorial-united-communist-Zebra-traitors, or horses?

Is it not possible than a great many Americans are simply unhappy about the war? Is it not possible that seeking redress from the government is a 1st ammendment right? Is it not possible that giving a damn is patriotism, rather than treason?

 

[Mephisto]

Mephisto (and to others directly involved) I'd like to express my appreciation for your service in Vietnam. Have you considered that from the geopolitical view our adventure was a success even though conventional victory was not achieved?

That war, and the somewhat similar standoff achieved in Korea were a shot across the bows of Red China more than anything else. Nor have the dominos fallen in SE Asia as the USSR was also put on notice.

Hammegk,

I'd like to thank you directly for expressing your appreciation for my military service. At least SOMEONE is cognizant of how it must feel for a disabled veteran to be "Swiftboated" by the neo-con nutjobs.

I would also like to say that I have considered the geopolitical viewpoint and sincerely hope that some good came from that war. Vietnam is a beautiful country with beautiful people and I hope that future generations can look (with the smiling eyes that only the Vietnamese seem to have) beyond the scars of that war.

Iraq is an entirely different situation where a success of any kind entails ensuring a government in place that is not absolutely hostile to the US and its' interests. Iran/Syria/NK and nukes will still need to be sorted out of course.

I do realize that Vietnam is not Iraq, however, I am (hopefully understandably) concerned with the similarities of the two wars and there have been too many for me to ignore. My concerns lie primarily with the soldiers and the military families who risk sacrificing more than anyone else concerned. The possibility that this war will have a positive effect on the middle-east twenty-five years from now is little solace to those families in mourning. To think that (now) they must be careful NOT to have their pictures taken while mourning otherwise extremists like Skeptic and Corplinx can announce that they want to have sex with the corpse of their son, father, mother, brother, sister . . .

And thanks to our men-in-arms, Cindy and all of us continue to enjoy the benefits of our democratic republic.

... [/soapbox]

And thank YOU, hammegk for a sincere non-partisan post in a thread that has gone overboard to prove that loud-mouth, attention-seeking idiots on both sides of this fence constantly vie for attention. The biggest difference I see between the two sides is the extremes they'll stoop to in order to support their cause. One side thinks nothing of cheap, contrived photos and accepting support from anyone, the other side thinks nothing of belittling disabled, combat veterans from several wars in defense of the flawed policies of a President who is likely guilty of desertion.

(edited to add) This is honestly my last post in this thread, as I'll have to agree that it's simply going nowhere.

 

[rikzilla]

Rik, you never fail to disappoint me.

Thanks man! Glad to be of service.

McCarthy was not a "good" man IMHO; and yet neither was he the monster that the meme propagation machine has made him out to be. Even now we are getting the McCarthy=monster meme spoon fed to us by Hollywood. This even though VENONA declassification 10 years ago should have exhonorated some of McCarthy's supposed guilt.

I wonder why the movie rights to Elizabeth Bentley's story have never been picked up by Hollywood? It has everything; romance, action, intrigue, violence, sex, death, corruption. In any case Cleon the "Red Spy Queen" book is a great read. You should check it out...I couldn't put it down.

-z

 

[Cleon]

Thanks man! Glad to be of service.

McCarthy was not a "good" man IMHO; and yet neither was he the monster that the meme propagation machine has made him out to be. Even now we are getting the McCarthy=monster meme spoon fed to us by Hollywood. This even though VENONA declassification 10 years ago should have exhonorated some of McCarthy's supposed guilt.

I wonder why the movie rights to Elizabeth Bentley's story have never been picked up by Hollywood? It has everything; romance, action, intrigue, violence, sex, death, corruption. In any case Cleon the "Red Spy Queen" book is a great read. You should check it out...I couldn't put it down.

Rik, it's one thing to espouse ignorance of and apologize for the McCarthy era because of some factoid you picked up from some rabid anti-communist.

It's another to proudly proclaim your ignorance, loud and far, and repeat it ad nauseum.

 

[rikzilla]

Even a blind pig will occasionally find a truffle. A handful of "well placed and active Soviet spies" does not a world wide conspiracy amoungst the leaders of war protesters make.

You seem like a good intelligent person ID. You should educate yourself better on this subject. Harry Dexter White was one of the spies Elizabeth Bentley testified against before HUAC. He was then the Undersecretary of the US Treasury and had not only fed the USSR information...he also helped make policy decisions favorable to the USSR and hired many other spies to sensitive positions @ Treasury.

McCarthy was later excoriated for ending the career of and causing the stress that led to the early death of an innocent man. Harry Dexter White was guilty of everything McCarthy said he was....and more. He was just one of many.

May I belabor the obvious by pointing out that there is no Soviet Union today, and the most frightening communist boggeyman which can be conjured with is Cuba, where they drive 50's era American cars, and have more classic Americana that we do.

Sure; but you can't say there are no communist sympathizers. There are plenty and they are overwhelmingly anti-American.

Communists in America not automatically traitors, nor protesters, nor white nor black. Rikzilla, when you hear hoofbeats, do you look for red-and-white stripped-conspiratorial-united-communist-Zebra-traitors, or horses?

If it waddles and quacks it's a duck. Similarly as an agnostic;

I don't believe in the X-tian God. I may be wrong...but this is a logical model which reflects the reality that I see around me quite well.

Is it not possible than a great many Americans are simply unhappy about the war?

Yes; were I someone who never served in the Army; or only got my news from CNN and the WaPo I'd agree with them. Luckily my eyes are wide open to the reality of the war instead of the gloomy dreck served up by the media masters.

Is it not possible that seeking redress from the government is a 1st ammendment right? Is it not possible that giving a damn is patriotism, rather than treason?

When you have to keep reminding me that it's "patriotism not treason" it's very likely neither.

-z

 

[rikzilla]

Rik, it's one thing to espouse ignorance of and apologize for the McCarthy era because of some factoid you picked up from some rabid anti-communist.

It's another to proudly proclaim your ignorance, loud and far, and repeat it ad nauseum.

Hey Cleon,

All I can do is offer evidence for my position. You can either accept it or not as you feel moved...but not before you've even read it! C'mon now, let's be fair. VENONA was a top secret program that was actively collecting evidence against Soviet spies during the McCarthy era. It is germane to the McCarthy discussion and his place in history. It was declassified about 10 years ago....and yet no one mentions it when discussing McCarthy's "badness". Why do you disregard it out of hand? Why not go and read up on it first? Are you scared it may alter your perception of McCarthy?

-z

 

[Cleon]

Hey Cleon,

All I can do is offer evidence for my position. You can either accept it or not as you feel moved...but not before you've even read it! C'mon now, let's be fair. VENONA was a top secret program that was actively collecting evidence against Soviet spies during the McCarthy era. It is germane to the McCarthy discussion and his place in history. It was declassified about 10 years ago....and yet no one mentions it when discussing McCarthy's "badness". Why do you disregard it out of hand? Why not go and read up on it first? Are you scared it may alter your perception of McCarthy?

-z

Rik, my grandfather had the joy of being on McCarthy's blacklist. My grandfather was not, had never been, and never became, a member of the Communist Party USA. He was not a Marxist in any way, shape, or form. Yet for about eight years, he had one heluva hard time finding a job.

McCarthy criminalized a political outlook, and anyone who was even remotely connected with anyone McCarthy decided was "suspect" became suspect themselves. Guilt? Innocence? Actual association? Irrelevant to his paranoid lusting for the limelight. If McCarthy turned his attention on you, your only possible way out was to "denounce" family members or friends. (Ironically, this is very similar to one of the few possible ways out of Stalin's gulags--denouncing someone else.)

No, Rik, Venona or no Venona, I don't need your "help" in figuring out an opinion on McCarthy.

That's all I have to say on the subject. Feel free to flout your ignorance some more, if it makes you feel better.

 

[delphi_ote]

Jeez, you hippies and commies sure like to rationalize someone who whored their grief out to Vanity Fair. Its time to stop making excuses.

I know it's too late anyway, but for the record my point was about the person who arranged the photo, not Cindy.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

McCarthy was later excoriated for ending the career of and causing the stress that led to the early death of an innocent man. Harry Dexter White was guilty of everything McCarthy said he was....and more. He was just one of many.

Sure; but you can't say there are no communist sympathizers. There are plenty and they are overwhelmingly anti-American.


When you have to keep reminding me that it's "patriotism not treason" it's very likely neither.

-z

There is more to your post, and I'll respond to it at a later time. This segment requires special attention.

I am a communist sympathizer.

I am a democratic sympathizer.

Regardless of whether someone is an American, or foreign, here in my country or abroad, I sympathize with them. I could just as easily have been born in Iraq, or Dresden, or Soviet Russia. They're people too. If my grandparents hadn’t been very lucky, I would be living in Cuba right now, if at all. When my government takes actions against people, regardless of their nationality, or political beliefs which cause them needless harm and suffering, what ever the cause, I care. I get up off of my fat American ass and vote. I read, I get every piece of information available, because I love the principal of democracy which grants me and my fellow citizens the obligation to make our voices heard.

That obligation is on every American. It's an obligation to particpate, and allow other Americans to participate. Red-Baiting, name calling, and every other type of dismissive ad hominem is a slur not against them, but against America. If everyone isn't allowed to participate equally, then democracy is meaningless.

McCarthy hounded and slandered people in a desperate attempt to monopolize the voice of his cause. In attempting to supresses dictatorship, he nearly created one. If someone who disagrees with you is a communist and an American, their disagreeing with you on the issues isn't Anti-American, it's the very height of the American way. Anti-American would be shutting them up with force or intimidation.

 

[rikzilla]

Rik, my grandfather had the joy of being on McCarthy's blacklist. My grandfather was not, had never been, and never became, a member of the Communist Party USA. He was not a Marxist in any way, shape, or form. Yet for about eight years, he had one heluva hard time finding a job.

McCarthy criminalized a political outlook, and anyone who was even remotely connected with anyone McCarthy decided was "suspect" became suspect themselves. Guilt? Innocence? Actual association? Irrelevant to his paranoid lusting for the limelight. If McCarthy turned his attention on you, your only possible way out was to "denounce" family members or friends. (Ironically, this is very similar to one of the few possible ways out of Stalin's gulags--denouncing someone else.)

No, Rik, Venona or no Venona, I don't need your "help" in figuring out an opinion on McCarthy.

That's all I have to say on the subject. Feel free to flout your ignorance some more, if it makes you feel better.

Perhaps you are then too close to the subject to discuss it rationally? You are injecting your emotional knee-jerk response into this issue and I imagine I would do the same had it been my family member slandered.

The fact remains that McCarthy has been proven correct about his allegations that the Roosevelt and Truman administrations were riddled with high level Soviet spies. IMHO VENONA proves that McCarthy was making a good point badly.

Despite his faults...and there were many, Senator Joseph McCarthy was correct in his underlying premise. These spies and fellow travelers damaged the foreign policy interests of the United States in a variety of ways. Worse still, high ranking members of the two administrations knew or should have known about the Soviet infiltration and did nothing about it. VENONA bears all this out. Rather than trying to rehabilitate McCarthy, I'm just trying to inject a little balance into the debate. McCarthy was criminally sloppy in making allegations. Nonetheless, the liberal establishment could not disprove McCarthy's allegations and; in fact; was mortally embarrassed by them. They themselves fought fire with fire and diverted attention from the charges by attacking McCarthy himself. The effect of this was to obscure the underlying truth of what McCarthy was saying and of what had really occurred. This "crust" around the issue has lasted for nearly fifty years so that as soon as anyone starts to discuss Communists in the government during the 40's and 50's, liberals deride them using McCarthy's name.

Thanks to VENONA we can now look at the issue with 20/20 historical hindsight. The only question I'm asking is why are people so blinkered by their own political bias that they won't even consider the VENONA revalations in the context of McCarthy?

The cry of "McCarthyism" carried much weight before 1995...now it's appeal to a discredited meme. It's straw really. Just well disguised straw.

-z

 

[Cleon]

Despite his faults...and there were many, Senator Joseph McCarthy was correct in his underlying premise.

Never mind the innocent people who were publicly slandered.
Never mind the blacklist that made it nearly impossible for people who'd committed no crime to find work.
Never mind using slander and innuendo to go after political enemies.

Yeah. You can keep that "balance," Rik. I want no part of it.

 

[rikzilla]

Never mind the innocent people who were publicly slandered.
Never mind the blacklist that made it nearly impossible for people who'd committed no crime to find work.
Never mind using slander and innuendo to go after political enemies.

Yeah. You can keep that "balance," Rik. I want no part of it.

I never said any of that man. Keep your emotional straw out of the debate please. Better yet go somewhere and breathe deeply into a brown paper bag.

It's time to admit that the liberal establishment has created an anti-hero icon in McCarthy...and that it's wrong. A meme. A lie. It's time for an iconoclastic moment here folks. If the "McCarthyism" meme is false...and large portions of it are....the story should be re-examined in light of new and real evidence.

-z

 

[Cleon]

I never said any of that man.

Yet you're defending all of it. Just to create some conspiracy theory about a "liberal establishment lie" about McCarthy.

The guy was a power-hungry thug, plain and simple. Stop defending the indefensible.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

I never said any of that man. Keep your emotional straw out of the debate please. Better yet go somewhere and breathe deeply into a brown paper bag.

It's time to admit that the liberal establishment has created an anti-hero icon in McCarthy...and that it's wrong. A meme. A lie. It's time for an iconoclastic moment here folks. If the "McCarthyism" meme is false...and large portions of it are....the story should be re-examined in light of new and real evidence.

-z

A) Anti-hero is not synonymous with villain. An anti-hero is a figure who commits questionable acts, but whom the audience sympathizes with.

B) What parts are false? Are you denying the blacklisting, the slander, and the consequences to innocent people thereof?

 

[Jocko]

. Stop defending the indefensible.

That's rich, coming from an ANSWER apologist.

 

[Cleon]

That's rich, coming from an ANSWER apologist.

Your application to join my ignore list has been approved.

 

[rikzilla]

Yet you're defending all of it. Just to create some conspiracy theory about a liberal establishment "lie" about McCarthy.

The guy was a power-hungry thug, plain and simple. Stop defending the indefensible.

This is not a conspiracy theory. It's real and germane evidence. Many people cried about being blacklisted; yet many of those people were very guilty just the same.

In the fall of 1953, McCarthy's committee began its ill-fated inquiry into the United States Army. It attempted to uncover a spy ring in the Army Signal Corps, but failed. The committee came to focus its attention on an Army dentist, Irving Peress, who took the Fifth Amendment twenty times under sustained questioning. Peress was accused of recruiting military personnel into the Communist Party, and the declassified Venona papers prove that he was in fact running a Soviet Spy ring within the US Army. It is known for certain that Peress refused to answer questions on Defense Department forms concerning membership in "subversive organizations," and that the Army Surgeon General had recommended his dismissal early in 1953. McCarthy expressed serious concerns that Peress had not been discharged after that recommendation, but instead had been promoted to the rank of Major. In its report on the Peress case, the McClellan Committee said that "some 48 errors of more than minor importance were committed by the Army in connection with the commissioning, transfer, promotion, and honorable discharge of Irving Peress." As a result, the Army made some sweeping changes in its security program, including a policy statement that said "the taking of the Fifth Amendment by an individual queried about his Communist affiliations is sufficient to warrant the issuance of a general discharge rather than an honorable discharge."

-From Wikipedia

Like I said he had a good point; yet made it in several very bad ways. Perhaps this discussion deserves it's own thread?

-z

 

[Cleon]

This is not a conspiracy theory. It's real and germane evidence. Many people cried about being blacklisted; yet many of those people were very guilty just the same.

And a whole heluva lot of them weren't.

But the wonderful thing about political show trials (as the HUAC hearings were) is that actual guilt or innocence is irrelevant. The moment you're summoned, you're guilty.

I imagine there might have been an actual witch or two at Salem, too...But somehow that doesn't excuse the witch trials.

ETA: Yes, putting in bizarre diatribes about a "liberal establishment lie" is, in fact, a conspiracy theory.