"OK, Cindy, we need something that suggests Incestual Necrophilia..."

[RandFan]

Are you saying that those on the right don't enjoy their limelight? So what if she smiles as she's arrested. She was being cheered on by all those people who were with her, lending her their support.

Secondly, Cindy Sheenhan doesn't have to denounce the supporters who are especially objectionable anymore than Bush has to denounce Pat Robertson everytime he's embarassing.

Apples and oranges. There is no way in hell Bush or any other prominent politician could ever go to a function with Klan supporters handing out leaflets without being castigated. George W. Bush and others have been taken to task when they visited Bob Jones university because they have a policy discouraging interracial dating. Republican leaders have been taken to task in the past when they went to events that were also patronized by right wing nut jobs.

And let's bear in mind the event in questions was sponsored by left wing fringe groups.

She doesn't deserve to be treated with kid gloves, but let's be consistent in our treatment of the right and the left on the issues.

Thank you, that's all I ask.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Apples and oranges. There is no way in hell Bush or any other prominent politician could ever go to a function with Klan supporters handing out leaflets without being castigated. George W. Bush and others have been taken to task when they visited Bob Jones university because they have a policy discouraging interracial dating. Republican leaders have been taken to task in the past when they went to events that were also patronized by right wing nut jobs.

Elected officals, and the Republican party (as well as the Democrats) have the authority, wealth and power to throw their own political parties, invite who they want, and cry if they want to, cry if they want to.

Cindy Sheehan has never been to a communist party gathering, or a "burn all the solderis" now party. She has only made and attended war protests, and is even supported by Veterans for Peace, a pretty respectable peace organization.

 

[RandFan]

Elected officials, and the Republican party (as well as the Democrats) have the authority, wealth and power to throw their own political parties, invite who they want, and cry if they want to, cry if they want to.

Cindy Sheehan has never been to a communist party gathering, or a "burn all the solderis" now party. She has only made and attended war protests, and is even supported by Veterans for Peace, a pretty respectable peace organization.

Sheehan attended The World Can't Wait Rally which was funded by The Revolutionary Communist Party (RCP) as noted on Wikipedia. I think it appropriate for a person to decide if a persons associations are worthy of consideration or not. I also think it important to be consistent. If people are going to take Republican leaders to task for attending Bob Jones University and other events then I think they should hold left leaning ones responsible also. Sheehan doesn't need to go to every event. She could certainly educate herself about the sponsors of the events and distance herself from some of the positions. Is the left so bereft of mainstream groups to protest the war?

It's one thing when nut jobs show up at your event. It's another when they are the ones hosting the event.

I'm not sure how much more mileage you and I are going to get out of this one. I'm beginning to think we are approaching that point where we are just arguing ad nauseam.

Why don't you have the last word and we will agree to disagree on this one.

 

[Mephisto]

Cindy Sheehan (snip) has only made and attended war protests, and is even supported by Veterans for Peace, a pretty respectable peace organization.

ImaginalDisc,

You're addressing (some of) the lunatic fringe of the far Right here - they don't care about Veterans, or about anything having to do with Peace - they're hardcore Bush robots who belittle anything that doesn't agree with them. You would think that Veterans returning from Iraq would have something to say that intelligent people would want to hear, but unless you're saying "Stay the Course," or "Cindy Sheehan is $crewing the corpse of her son - they simply don't have the attention span.

Don't believe me?

Oh noes, you have played your disabled veteran card. Now I must backpedal and try not to look insensitive. Oh wait, I'm not a coward who backs down from someone who exploits their own loss to fricken "win" an arguement. Its why I don't fall for the "you cant criticize Cindy because she lost son crap", why do you think it would work here?

By the way, Captain Rickey Mooney ex-SF who served one tour in vietnam thinks your wrong for fronting your disability like that.

That is their logic - to belittle the concerns of one disabled-veteran in favor of one that supports THEIR viewpoint (and he even served a WHOLE TOUR in Vietnam).

For those of you on the borderlines of the "lunatic fringe" there are these sites. They may give you a LOT more to think about than the claims of a wacko determined to make an issue out of a picture in his Vanity Fair magazine. Here are a bevy of websites full of soldiers who think nothing of " exploiting their own loss to fricken "win" an arguement."

Here's one with a soldier who apparently misses out on all the gay sex he had during his tour of duty.

http://www.vaiw.org/vet/index.php


Here's a site full of disabled veterans shamelessly appearing in photos with wheelchairs and the American flag - how trite!

http://www.vvaw.org/

And here's a site full of Iraq war veteran pantywaists who didn't have the balls to stay the course - look at the pictures of them all posing for sympathy! If they were REAL MEN they would just jump out of those wheelchairs a be proud as punch that they were given the opportunity to depose a horrible dictator and bring peace and democracy to the Iraqi people - that's worth an arm and a leg, don't you think?

http://www.ivaw.net/

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Sheehan attended The World Can't Wait Rally which was funded by The Revolutionary Communist Party (RCP) as noted on Wikipedia


It's one thing when nut jobs show up at your event. It's another when they are the ones hosting the event.

I'm not sure how much more mileage you and I are going to get out of this one. I'm beginning to think we are approaching that point where we are just arguing ad nauseam.

Ah, touche. Yes, it's a politically active person's responsability to watch what they say, and what they do. And was an irresponsible and self-destructive move on her part. I concede your point in the matter, as long as we're clear to examine pollitical protesters individually, and not lump them all together.

 

[Cleon]

If people are going to take Republican leaders to task for attending Bob Jones University and other events then I think they should hold left leaning ones responsible also.

Didn't you vote for Bush anyway? Twice, if memory serves.

 

[RandFan]

Didn't you vote for Bush anyway? Twice, if memory serves.

Your point? I think it appropriate for people to consider people's associations. Bush expressed regret for his appearance and made clear that he didn't share the views of Bob Jones. I have suggested that Cindy should make clear that she doesn't share the views of RCP. I believe that is a consistent position. Please to correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[RandFan]

...as long as we're clear to examine pollitical protesters individually, and not lump them all together.

Agreed.

 

[Mephisto]

I'm not sure how much more mileage you and I are going to get out of this one. I'm beginning to think we are approaching that point where we are just arguing ad nauseam.

Why don't you have the last word and we will agree to disagree on this one.

Well, no such furor was made of the fact that George H.W. Bush was a member of the John Birch Society, but then that's a conservative organization.
_______

"The JBS seeks to promote the idea that the United States is founded on Christian principles and supports the role of the Christian religion in culture and government. Amongst other things, it is staunchly opposed to globalization and is supportive of reduced immigration; it also advocates the abolition of income tax, and the repeal of certain civil rights laws, as being communist in nature. The JBS regularly alerts its members to these and other issues as well as what it sees as the "cultural manipulation" occurring in contemporary American society. The views of the JBS tend to attract controversy."

http://demopedia.democraticunderground.com/index.php/John_Birch_Society
_________

Should we all be judged by the company we keep - or are there instances where your club, knitting-circle, political organization, church or place of employment can support you, but doesn't necessarily speak for you?

 

[Cleon]

Your point? I think it appropriate for people to consider people's associations. Bush expressed regret for his appearance and made clear that he didn't share the views of Bob Jones. I have suggested that Cindy should make clear that she doesn't share the views of RCP. I believe that is a consistent position. Please to correct me if I'm wrong.

Well, you obviously didn't think Bush's campaign launch at a racist, bigotted, creationist fundie college was enough to dissuade you from voting for him. Twice. (And let's be clear--he didn't express regret for his appearance. He weaseled out of it by saying "I should have been more clear in disassociating myself from anti-Catholic sentiments and racial prejudice." How charitable of him.)

Why should Sheehan apologize for appearing at a rally in which communists participated, even if they funded it? It obviously wasn't an exclusively RCP rally. It was an anti-war rally.

Bush only decided to weasel after it became clear that it might hurt him at the ballot box. Why should Sheehan apologize? She's not trying to earn votes. Nobody's going to decide to be for the war because the RCP helped organize a rally she spoke at.

And frankly, speaking as someone who's vehemently anti-war (and been red-baited on this board as a result), I honestly don't CARE if you and the other pro-war types think I'm a communist. When people resort to red-baiting, it says more about their lack of an argument than my (or Sheehan's) actual politics.

 

[RandFan]

Well, you obviously didn't think Bush's campaign launch at a racist, bigotted, creationist fundie college was enough to dissuade you from voting for him. Twice. (And let's be clear--he didn't express regret for his appearance. He weaseled out of it by saying "I should have been more clear in disassociating myself from anti-Catholic sentiments and racial prejudice." How charitable of him.)

Why should Sheehan apologize for appearing at a rally in which communists participated, even if they funded it? It obviously wasn't an exclusively RCP rally. It was an anti-war rally.

Bush only decided to weasel after it became clear that it might hurt him at the ballot box. Why should Sheehan apologize? She's not trying to earn votes. Nobody's going to decide to be for the war because the RCP helped organize a rally she spoke at.

And frankly, speaking as someone who's vehemently anti-war (and been red-baited on this board as a result), I honestly don't CARE if you and the other pro-war types think I'm a communist. When people resort to red-baiting, it says more about their lack of an argument than my (or Sheehan's) actual politics.

I think it appropriate for the press to take George W. Bush to task for attending Bob Jones. I think it appropriate for anyone to come to a conclusion regarding Bush about his appearance. I think it appropriate for me to make a decision based on all of the evidence. I have never sought to minimize Bush's actions except to make clear that he did apologize.

"I should have been more clear in disassociating myself from anti-Catholic sentiments and racial prejudice,"

Sheehan has done no such thing.

I think Sheehan's associations are awful and it angers me that the RCP gains credibility and notoriety simply because they are anti-war. It angers me that they are not taken to task in the press. I think they are as dangerous and odious as the sentiments of Bob Jones University.

My position is consistent. It doesn't appear to me that yours is. You are a great example of what I'm talking about. You think Bush should be held accountable for his association with Bob Jones. Cindy on the other hand shouldn't, by your reasoning, be held accountable.

I think they both should be held accountable.

 

[Manny]

Well, no such furor was made of the fact that George H.W. Bush was a member of the John Birch Society, but then that's a conservative organization.

That's one possible reason. I think the more likely one is that George H.W. Bush was never a member of the John Birch society; indeed, they hated him.

Dude, he was Ambassador to the UN and ran the CIA, two of the Birchers' favorite bugaboos! He was an quasi-ambassador to a real live communist country. Where did you get the idea he was a member?

 

[RandFan]

Well, no such furor was made of the fact that George H.W. Bush was a member of the John Birch Society, but then that's a conservative organization.
_______

"The JBS seeks to promote the idea that the United States is founded on Christian principles and supports the role of the Christian religion in culture and government. Amongst other things, it is staunchly opposed to globalization and is supportive of reduced immigration; it also advocates the abolition of income tax, and the repeal of certain civil rights laws, as being communist in nature. The JBS regularly alerts its members to these and other issues as well as what it sees as the "cultural manipulation" occurring in contemporary American society. The views of the JBS tend to attract controversy."

http://demopedia.democraticunderground.com/index.php/John_Birch_Society
_________

Should we all be judged by the company we keep - or are there instances where your club, knitting-circle, political organization, church or place of employment can support you, but doesn't necessarily speak for you?

I have no problem what-so-ever with anyone taking George H. W. Bush to task for his associations with JBS, assuming there were any.

Do you have proof of his membership?

 

[hammegk]

Well, you obviously didn't think Bush's campaign launch at a racist, bigotted, creationist fundie college was enough to dissuade you from voting for him.

Perhaps it would have had more voters actually shared your viewpoint that racist, bigotted, creationist fundie colleges were a liability rather than an asset. It sucks being a tiny minority, doesn't it?

And many of your opponents would state that multiculturalist, one-worlder, secular colleges are the dissuading factor.


Mephisto (and to others directly involved) I'd like to express my appreciation for your service in Vietnam. Have you considered that from the geopolitical view our adventure was a success even though conventional victory was not achieved?

That war, and the somewhat similar standoff achieved in Korea were a shot across the bows of Red China more than anything else. Nor have the dominos fallen in SE Asia as the USSR was also put on notice.

Iraq is an entirely different situation where a success of any kind entails ensuring a government in place that is not absolutely hostile to the US and its' interests. Iran/Syria/NK and nukes will still need to be sorted out of course.


And thanks to our men-in-arms, Cindy and all of us continue to enjoy the benefits of our democratic republic.

... [/soapbox]

 

[DavidJames]

But RF, you're expecting more out of a housewife whose son was killed and is trying to do what she feels is right, than you expect out of the President himself.

HEY! Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. --The Great and Mighty Oz.

Good response Mephisto.

These quotes sum up the political debate. The hypocrisy is pointed out, acknowledged, but does nothing to slow it down.

Carry on.

 

[Roadtoad]

Please, no more about Cindy Sheehan. She's proven herself an embarassment.

The photo was not offensive, it was sad. One more demonstration that her self-aggrandisement was more important than the sacrifice her son and others like him have made over the past 230+ years. It reminds me far too clearly of the times my father, a decorated Vietnam Vet, would avoid wearing his uniform in public, because, quite frankly, he didn't want to get spit on again as he was when he left the plane in El Centro, CA, when he got home from his tour of duty.

And, BTW: Mephisto, Rik, et al, thanks. Proud to know you.

 

[RandFan]

These quotes sum up the political debate. The hypocrisy is pointed out, acknowledged, but does nothing to slow it down.

Carry on.

If it were only so simple. I'll have to remember not to be candid and attempt wit in the future. It just might get me labeled a hypocrite.

Come on David. Mephisto makes a good point however that point isn't the be-all end-all of the debate.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Why should Sheehan apologize for appearing at a rally in which communists participated, even if they funded it? It obviously wasn't an exclusively RCP rally. It was an anti-war rally.

Bush only decided to weasel after it became clear that it might hurt him at the ballot box. Why should Sheehan apologize? She's not trying to earn votes. Nobody's going to decide to be for the war because the RCP helped organize a rally she spoke at.

And frankly, speaking as someone who's vehemently anti-war (and been red-baited on this board as a result), I honestly don't CARE if you and the other pro-war types think I'm a communist. When people resort to red-baiting, it says more about their lack of an argument than my (or Sheehan's) actual politics.

It's not that I think communism is so bad, that that these particular communists are bad. Just as I don't think christiantity is quite as bad a Pat Robertson.

Speaking the son of Cuban refugees, it really burns my ass to be red baited, considering that my grandfather fled from Cuba with an order for his arrest and execution hanging over his head.

[/hijack]

 

[Cleon]

I think it appropriate for the press to take George W. Bush to task for attending Bob Jones. I think it appropriate for anyone to come to a conclusion regarding Bush about his appearance. I think it appropriate for me to make a decision based on all of the evidence. I have never sought to minimize Bush's actions except to make clear that he did apologize.



Sheehan has done no such thing.

I think Sheehan's associations are awful and it angers me that the RCP gains credibility and notoriety simply because they are anti-war. It angers me that they are not taken to task in the press. I think they are as dangerous and odious as the sentiments of Bob Jones University.

My position is consistent. It doesn't appear to me that yours is. You are a great example of what I'm talking about. You think Bush should be held accountable for his association with Bob Jones. Cindy on the other hand shouldn't, by your reasoning, be held accountable.

I think they both should be held accountable.

None of this relates to the points I raised. Care to try again?

 

[RandFan]

None of this relates to the points I raised. Care to try again?

Sorry but your position is simply incoherent and demonstrably hypocritical on its face. There is no need for a point by point response.

You are attacking Bush solely for his association.

Bush has never advocated Bob Jones University or the policies of Bob Jones University. He went to Bob Jones university not because he supported their anti-Catholic and racist policies but because he shared common goals with many of the people attending the university separate from those policies. The odious policies and sentiment are a tiny fraction of the university BTW. To suppose that racism and hatred permeate the campus would be a false assumption. However the policies and sentiment are wrong and for that reason political leaders should not go because it gives those policies credibility.

I think it was wrong for him to go. I also think it wrong for Sheehan to go to an RCP funded rally because it gives them credibility. That is a coherent position. Voting for Bush does not make my position incoherent as long as I hold his actions wrong. You can support Cindy and think Bush wrong for visiting Bob Jones as long as you hold that Cindy visiting an RCP rally is wrong.

You just need to be consistent.