And you seem to think you can quote 100% improbability with absolute certainty. Sorry, but I doubt you.
Yes, I can tell.
Right. And? So you would then make the claim that there is no chance that we may find exceptions to a law, at any point of time?
Yes, because the consequences of that exception would be catastrophic. Here is a way to look at it that will give you an idea. In America and Canada we drive on the right hand side of the road. It is a universal rule that keeps the traffic machine running very smoothly.
Suppose, tomorrow, without warning, one person switched. Well, this actually happens and often it results in multi-vehicle accidents, injuries and deaths. So, imagine that 50% of the people were
forced to switched. How efficient would the system be? If the system remained this way, how long would it survive? Regardless, this change in rules would irrevocably change the entire traffic system in North America.
What was the point of this question?
Okay, for the sake of discussion, here are a few consequences to a law being violated.
I asked:
"What would happen if gravity turned off just around Jupiter?"
1 - What is it that holds Jupiter together?(Gravity)
2 - What would happen to Jupiter itself if this was suddenly turned off? (It wouldn't be held together. . . it would come apart!)
3- Seeing as how Jupiter is a large body and has a large affect on other planets, what would happen of Jupiter no longer had this effect? (Remember, all gravity is suspended at Jupiter so seriously bad stuff would happen, like maybe it would change the orbit of the Earth and take us out of that special zone where is is possible for life to exist.)
3- Will this seriously bad stuff happening to our solar system have an impact on the rest of the galaxy? (Yes)
4- If gravity is turned off around Jupiter and Jupiter is now 100, 1000 or 1,000,000, or more, times larger than it was does that mean gravity is turned off in this larger area?
If "Yes" - This larger area of no gravity will accelerate and magnify the really bad stuff that is happening to our solar system, the gallaxy and the universe which will, in turn, expand the special area more and more until it encompasses the entire universe.
If "No" - What is holding the special area of gravity in place and stopping it from expanding? Is the force holding this special gravity in place also stopping the now destroyed Jupiter from drifting off into space?
If the force does not stop the pieces of Jupiter from drifting into space, does Jupiter reassemble itself as soon as it passes the special gravity area?
6- Etc.
7- Etc.
...And? Seriously, this is pointless drivel. I'm not talking about the gravity on Jupiter.
You are talking about the laws of the universe and gravity is one of them. Gravity is in effect around Jupiter so you are, in fact, talking about it. It is a simple way to see what would happen if there were no laws or if the laws were inconsistant.
What if it were possible for another universe to slightly interfere with our own. that is it. You claimed it was 100% impossible, and have provided insufficient evidence.
No, you are playing a child's game of pretend. I am playing a scientist's game of "what would be the consequences." With pretend, anything can happen no matter how improbable. With "what would be the consequences" certain things will happen based on the existing conditions and what the new law allowed. These parameters would allow things to happen based on their probability. It would include somethings being impossible and some things being absolute.
You think that these laws can just be violated with minimum impact. I say that if they can be violated there would be serious consequences and because we do not see those consequences, we know they are not being violated.
There is no "slight" interaction between universes. If energy can bleed from one to another there would be serious consequences for both. It would allow for perpetual motion machines in one and make most machines impossible in the other! These would no longer be individual closed systems. They would be part of a larger closed system and would require a consistency of laws. If not, the new system would tear itself apart while trying to gain the level of stability required to exist.
I'm not even trying to justify a god! I gave a goddamn hypothetical speculative comment earlier! Now you're just confusing the issues.
I understand this, but the hypothetical you are giving gets the same debunking as if you are trying to support the idea of a god. A god is supernatural which means it can suspend the laws of the universe. This will have the same impact on the universe as any other event that suspends the laws.
Do we really know 100% of the universe all of the time?
The universe was around in its present form long before we started watching and it will be around after we stop. The rules are what cause the universe to be the way it is regardless of us watching. We are a result of these rules, not the other way around.
I'm not talking about some idea of god. I introduced a hypothetical question. You stated that it was 100% impossible. You'd have to do a lot to justify such a claim.
Actually, it wasn't hard at all.
1- The same law that makes perpetual motion impossible makes your hypothetical situation impossible.
2- If that law did change there would be serious consequences for our universe. (Perpetual motion machines would be possible)
3- We have not observed any of those consequences. (Perpetual motion machines are still impossible)
4- If we do observe any of these consequences our universe will be radically different than it is and most likely may no longer exist.
Sure, for changes that we can actually detect. If Jupiter suddenly lost it's gravity, we'd notice. If a small planet orbiting a quasar did such, it would be damned difficult to notice. If you think otherwise, show me the equations that would prove me wrong.
How can gravity hold in one place and not another? It is impossible in the same universe (closed system). Gravity either holds everywhere or it holds nowhere. The same consequences would result from gravity being suspended on a small planet in a distant part of the galaxy as woudl result if they were suspended on Jupiter.
I am not saying that such an event is likely. I agree that it's incredibly unlikely given our knowledge of the universe so far. But our knowledge of the universe is not perfect, and neither is our vision into it. There are many unexplained concepts, such as Dark Matter and Dark Energy.
Perhaps, it is the stability (consistencies of the laws, if you will) of our universe that has kept it together this long. It is easy to imagine universes with varying degrees of stability that last for shorter periods. As we don't know how long ours will last, we don't know if there is a more stable configuration.
If that is what you deal in, then I have no interest in continuing. There are enough masters of strawmen on these forums.
I hope you don't quit the discussion.
I brought up a speculative hypothetical. You claimed it was impossible. I find your "evidence" of such insufficient.
Not to bring god into this again but we both know it is impossible for me to prove a negative, so I cannot prove god doesn't exist. Fortunately, the obligation is with the person making the claim so it is up to believers to show one does.
If you believe this is happening, tell me what you predict the consequences to be and then show me where those consequences can be observed. You made the claim, it is up to you to prove it. I agree, this doesn't prove the probability of it happening but the fact that the universe has been around for 15 billion years or so should give us a place to start. The probability goes down with every minute that passes.
You act as if you have all of the answers in the universe. Here's a tip: You don't.
I know! I am just an arrogant atheist!
