Materialism (championed by Darwinists) makes reason Impossible.

punshhh said:
No a mystic keeps the mysteries at hand.

They can be used in maintaining a perspective on things, for example consciousness.
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Consciousness is no mystery. We know where it occurs and what gives it its nature. And none of that lies within the realm of mysticism or theology so would you keep your grubby hands off the subject?
 
The knowledge of the supernatural is more excellent than any human wisdom, because, although incomplete, it has a nobler object, and through its dependence on the unfailing word of God possesses a greater degree of certitude.

The obscurity which surrounds the mysteries of faith results from the weakness of the human intellect, which, like the eye that gazes on the sun, is blinded by the fulness of light.

From Catholic Encyclopedia: REASON AND SUPERNATURAL MYSTERY

The line of argumentation makes my hair stand up on its end.
 
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lemurien said:
The knowledge of the supernatural is more excellent than any human wisdom, because, although incomplete, it has a nobler object, and through its dependence on the unfailing word of God possesses a greater degree of certitude.

The obscurity which surrounds the mysteries of faith results from the weakness of the human intellect, which, like the eye that gazes on the sun, is blinded by the fulness of light.

From Catholic Encyclopedia: REASON AND SUPERNATURAL MYSTERY
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What a crock of hooey.
 
I started looking around what the word 'mystery' really means and it seems to be a secret that you can share only if you are initiated, something you can know but not understand.

My own meaning for the word was that it is something we do not know and that this ignorance has a negative social value coined to it. Those who Know are better people somehow. So they think.
 
I am a bit of a pragmatist. Truth is simply a best available narrative in terms of explanatory power. Explanatory power is measured in terms of ability to bring together understanding of a wide range of phenomena in a way that does not merely accommodate them. A good explanation should have predictive utility, telling us both what we should see and shouldn't in new observations. Being able to make consistently successful predictions of our world allows for technological applications.

With very successful scientific models we might even consider our narratives to be at least very close to aspects of objective reality.

The scientific method and materialistic narratives provide us with utility and measures of success that endeavours like mysticism do not.
 
Sideroxylon: The scientific method and materialistic narratives provide us with utility and measures of success that endeavours like mysticism do not.

This is a question not to challenge but to hear an answer: Is mysticism mutually exclusive with materialism?

My understanding is that it isn't, because the subjective experience of being in communion with a greater 'something' does not in any way keep you from operating rationally in the realm of material things.

Have I misunderstood?
 
lemurien said:
Sideroxylon: The scientific method and materialistic narratives provide us with utility and measures of success that endeavours like mysticism do not.

This is a question not to challenge but to hear an answer: Is mysticism mutually exclusive with materialism?

My understanding is that it isn't, because the subjective experience of being in communion with a greater 'something' does not in any way keep you from operating rationally in the realm of material things.

Have I misunderstood?
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You are correct, I have never seen any kind of conflict or parting of the ways between mysticism and materialism, they address entirely different things.

The materialists on this forum have repeatedly told me that materialism doesn't address issues such as existence, what anything is, or why existence is the way it is.

I have repeatedly stated that I have no argument with materialism, I am in agreement. I see no supernatural aspect to reality, only a subtle complexity to nature which we may not fully understand at this time.

This notion of conflict or that theists are misguided appears to be held on this forum. I don't see it, can some one explain to me what is wrong with subscribing to theistic or mystical views?
 
lemurien said:
Sideroxylon: The scientific method and materialistic narratives provide us with utility and measures of success that endeavours like mysticism do not.

This is a question not to challenge but to hear an answer: Is mysticism mutually exclusive with materialism?
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Yes.

My understanding is that it isn't, because the subjective experience of being in communion with a greater 'something' does not in any way keep you from operating rationally in the realm of material things.
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Sure. As long as you understand that it's merely a brain malfunction, not something real. Which is the opposite of mysticism.
 
lemurien said:
Sideroxylon: The scientific method and materialistic narratives provide us with utility and measures of success that endeavours like mysticism do not.

This is a question not to challenge but to hear an answer: Is mysticism mutually exclusive with materialism?

My understanding is that it isn't, because the subjective experience of being in communion with a greater 'something' does not in any way keep you from operating rationally in the realm of material things.

Have I misunderstood?
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There certainly doesn't have to be conflict. I imagine that mystic perspectives can attempt to accommodate materialistic narratives, at the risk of cherry picking, distortion and shoe horning.

What is the value of subjective truths, aside from making one feel good?
 
lemurien said:
The knowledge of the supernatural is more excellent than any human wisdom, because, although incomplete, it has a nobler object, and through its dependence on the unfailing word of God possesses a greater degree of certitude.

The obscurity which surrounds the mysteries of faith results from the weakness of the human intellect, which, like the eye that gazes on the sun, is blinded by the fulness of light.

From Catholic Encyclopedia: REASON AND SUPERNATURAL MYSTERY

The line of argumentation makes my hair stand up on its end.
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Pure unmitigated crap.
 
lemurien said:
I started looking around what the word 'mystery' really means and it seems to be a secret that you can share only if you are initiated, something you can know but not understand.

My own meaning for the word was that it is something we do not know and that this ignorance has a negative social value coined to it. Those who Know are better people somehow. So they think.
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Initiated,lol. Cut out the Den Of The Secret Seven Stuff.
 
punshhh said:
This notion of conflict or that theists are misguided appears to be held on this forum. I don't see it, can some one explain to me what is wrong with subscribing to theistic or mystical views?
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No gods and no unknown unknowns. It's very simple.
 
Sideroxylon said:
There certainly doesn't have to be conflict. I imagine that mystic perspectives can attempt to accommodate materialistic narratives, at the risk of cherry picking, distortion and shoe horning.

What is the value of subjective truths, aside from making one feel good?
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Mystic perspectives can make people do all kinds of silly things but not because they are mystic but because people are silly.

Examples of subjective truths: My life is valuable. I feel I can make a difference. I ate too much. I need a new pair of shoes.

Subjective truths serve as motivators. Without them you would not budge.

OK you do not budge and someone beats you with a stick to make you move.
Your subjective truth is that beating hurts and to avoid it you prefere to move your behind.

Objective truths have to subjectivized before they motivate anybody.
 
punshhh said:
I talk about truth and purpose only as mysteries. You won't hear me trying to explain what they are.
Tao like Zen is a silent discipline, in discussion I refer other traditions.
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A priest, a rabbi and a donkey walk into a bar and the bartender says "What is this, some sort of joke?"
 
lemurien said:
The knowledge of the supernatural is more excellent than any human wisdom, because, although incomplete, it has a nobler object, and through its dependence on the unfailing word of God possesses a greater degree of certitude.

The obscurity which surrounds the mysteries of faith results from the weakness of the human intellect, which, like the eye that gazes on the sun, is blinded by the fulness of light.

From Catholic Encyclopedia: REASON AND SUPERNATURAL MYSTERY

The line of argumentation makes my hair stand up on its end.
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Oh blinding light
oh light that blinds
watch out for me
I can not see
 
lemurien said:
I started looking around what the word 'mystery' really means and it seems to be a secret that you can share only if you are initiated, something you can know but not understand.

My own meaning for the word was that it is something we do not know and that this ignorance has a negative social value coined to it. Those who Know are better people somehow. So they think.
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Or they make you fast, purge, suffer privation, give you drugs, terrify the **** out of you and the tell you a funny joke.

Afterwards you tear apart a sheep, have a few drinks and then an orgy.

You wake up the next day and say "What a strange dream I had" and they all go

"Exactly" and then roll around laughing so hard thier sombreros falls off and they drop thier tacos
 
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