Materialism (championed by Darwinists) makes reason Impossible.

Posted by DOC

So you believe intelligence comes from non-intelligent neurons?
Yes.
So then I would assume you believe that the source of all human emotion are chemical reactions of non-intelligent neurons.. For example when you are sad at the funeral of a parent. That grief emotion would be the sole result of non-intelligent chemical reactions in your brain according to your opinion.
No. You're forgetting that those chemical reactions in our brain are influenced, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, every day of the year with no holidays, by sensory input. (Not to mention the interaction with the environment).
So the statement just made after the word Sideroxylon above is a statement that was not made by a person with a soul. It was totally the result of non-inteligent chemical reactions and non-intelligent electrical impulses and not a soul.
No, he has a soul. It's just a physical soul, made out of chemicals and neurons.
They might have an effect on your mind but there is also the soul. Jesus 2000 years ago differentiated between the mind, the soul, and the heart. They are all different entiities.
Okay, see, now you're shooting yourself in the foot.

You started out trying to question us about whether we believe intelligence is the result of non-intelligent neurons. Presumably this is because it's supposed to go against our intuitions that such a thing can happen, though anyone in this modern age of computers shouldn't be surprised by the suggestion, seeing how voice recognition software, face recognition software, the entire internet, chess programs that beat the masters, programs that prove the four color theorem, and so on can be built out of a bunch of NAND gates.

But now you're going to turn around, in light of this supposed intuition violating notion that brains can be built out of non-intelligent neurons, and tell us that minds, hearts, and souls are three distinct entities that exist within us, and all three separably can have emotions?

Do you get to play this card right after attempting to play the violates-intuition one?
 
Well, I am sorry but the materials are what they are, difficult to collect and nothing but standardized. I did as I promised and went to the beach with The Neurology Of Consciousness".

The vestibular organ sends data via the 8th brain nerve to the cerebellum (to keep the head straight) to the tegmentum of the brain stem (which is the cause of the nausea in sea sickness), to the 3th and 4th bain nerves to control the eye muscles (you remember, we shake our head and the 'film' rolls on stable).

There are also direct projections to the brain cortex of the temporal lobe.
Right sided temporal epilepsia is known to bring about Out Of Body Experiences (OBE).
Patients having suffered cardiac arrests who otherwise have made an excellent recovery, do have degenerative changes in this area. It seems to be very sensitive to hypoxia.

OBEs have been described in pilots and astronauts in and out of weightlessness.
I just wonder if the AF 447 pilot was having one on the top of the stall!

Seems that some of the Christian Newborn cases could be attributed to brain hypoxia due to cardiac arrest.

The lesions on the left side were associated with a Presence. It could be threatening, it could be yourself from another era, it could be a dead relative but also an angel or God himself.

Now, I am not going any further to the details here. You can google NDE (Near Death Experience) and OBE (Out of Body Experience) and get ghost stories for the whole evening.

What I was saying is that our brain is fully capable of synthesizing all of this, no problem. You do not need souls leaving the body or holy spirits or angels to really really see them...it is your brain who does the seeing and it is a multimodal synth.

There is a chapter on the subject in The Neurology of Consciousness: Cognitive Neuroscience and Neuropathology by Steven Laureys and Giulio Tononi. (Elsevier Academic Press)
 
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Basically, yes. If you were to damage my brain in a certain way, you can alter my like/dislike for people. It's a scary thought but completely and totally true.
Medical science has verified this fact countless times.


Indeed. It also generates one very important question anybody advocating a soul struggles mightily to avoid answering:

In cases where someone suffers mental trauma, it is not unknown for their personality to change. Sometimes drastically. To the point where they are, for all intents and purposes, a different person than they used to be.

When they die, DOC, and their soul (which you claim exists, sans evidence) goes to heaven, which person is it? Did the pre-trauma soul arrive in heaven after the incident? Does that mean the person had two souls? If so, where did the second soul come from? Or is it only the one soul, in which case one of the people inhabitant that body died. Permanently. So much for their immortal soul...

Which is it, DOC?

I've thought about the matter. The notion of a soul is not only devoid of evidence, but completely unsustainable at anything more than a cursory examination. The concept descends into absurdity.
 
Does your brain like certain people and dislike certain people?

if you use the term body-brain, you'll get everything it takes to love and to loathe

we really do not know much about what an isolated brain preparate would do emotionwise, without the brain stem reticular activation system, the brain nerves etc.

there are hypotheses.
an isolated brain would not know how to love or to hate
takes a body to do that
 
Quote:
Yes, I know a machine has a lot of parts but that is not what he saying.




So the statement just made after the word Sideroxylon above is a statement that was not made by a person with a soul. It was totally the result of non-inteligent chemical reactions and non-intelligent electrical impulses and not a soul.
Given that the 'soul' is an imaginary concept everything said by a human is said "by a person with a soul".

Your inability to understand, and refusal to accept, reality are utterly irrelevant to it. Your need for a god to grovel before is far more revealing about your personality than about the objective universe.

They might have an effect on your mind but there is also the soul. Jesus 2000 years ago differentiated between the mind, the soul, and the heart. They are all different entiities.

He said you are to love God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
I await your proof that this 'Jesus' person actually existed, a proof you've singularly failed to deliver in multiple threads in this forum. This would be a nice start.
Furthermore even assuming Jesua ben Joseph existed (and his words have been correctly passed down), why would anyone give credence to the ramblings of an uneducated, bronze age, messianic preacher in preference to actual scientists?
 
'Soul' could be seen as the basic resonance of our virtual machine of consciousness.
Its built-in reflexes and learned ways of reacting and acting to things.
Its preferences and fears. Its subroutines.

It has so many aspects that the temptation to make it into a person is almost irresistible.
But where could it go when we die?
Where does the flight of an arrow go when it hits the ground?
Nowhere. It just ends.
 
Does your brain like certain people and dislike certain people?

Sure. And those like and dislike are based on the input my sense gave, my history as human, and the learning the brain did out of it.

Nothing special. About the same as learning to like or dislike beer.

Now funny things, you realize that some type of brain damage make you see all people you know as "alien" ? Copycat people which replaced them ?

And there are some brain syndrom which make people unable to accept fact and evidence inconsistent with their view of the universe.
 
Basically, yes. If you were to damage my brain in a certain way, you can alter my like/dislike for people. It's a scary thought but completely and totally true.
Medical science has verified this fact countless times.

And in some case it seems it could even change your sexual preference in a scary enough way to make you a pedophile.

There was an article in peer reviewed journal about a patient with a brain tumour about it.
 
So then I would assume you believe that the source of all human emotion are chemical reactions of non-intelligent neurons.. For example when you are sad at the funeral of a parent. That grief emotion would be the sole result of non-intelligent chemical reactions in your brain according to your opinion.

You have a point here, but I don't think you need to add a soul to understand what's going on. Try it this way: It's not just neurons and electricity; context matters. The dead parent matters, the funeral matters, your memories and relationships with others matter.

It reminds me of the old argument about life. "Are you saying that the chemicals found in cells are alive or have the property of life?" Not really. It's the chemicals embedded in a context. Change the context and you get another result. No dead parent -- no grief.

I'd say that consciousness requires an "outside" world to happen. The magic isn't entirely in the brain, but requires that the brain is embedded in a body and interacts with a world beyond the brain. The "Where does life come from?" question has a similar tone and a similar resolution.
 
joobz said:
Does your brain like certain people and dislike certain people?
Basically, yes. If you were to damage my brain in a certain way, you can alter my like/dislike for people. It's a scary thought but completely and totally true.
Medical science has verified this fact countless times.

Doc actually raises a good point here. Brains are just lumps of matter. Lumps of matter don't like or dislike things. They're just colletions of stuff. Does a rock like rolling down a hill, or a star like producing energy? The materialist story is that when you arrange specific matter in a specific way (i.e., a brain), it can like and dislike things. How is this possible? How does it work? Why are some lumps of matter capable of subjective experience and all others not? What is the missing ingredient? The answers are either non-existent, highly speculative (magical, if you will), or lead to idealism (everything is conscious).

Joobs, your response was revealing. No doubt what you meant to say was

If you were to damage my brain in a certain way, you can alter my [brain's] like/dislike for people

That little omission is revealing. Could it be that you believe you are more than the sum of your neurological parts? :eek:
 
You have a point here, but I don't think you need to add a soul to understand what's going on. Try it this way: It's not just neurons and electricity; context matters. The dead parent matters, the funeral matters, your memories and relationships with others matter.

It is just neurological. "Context" just means more neurological states.
 
Doc actually raises a good point here. Brains are just lumps of matter. Lumps of matter don't like or dislike things. They're just colletions of stuff. Does a rock like rolling down a hill, or a star like producing energy? The materialist story is that when you arrange specific matter in a specific way (i.e., a brain), it can like and dislike things. How is this possible? How does it work? Why are some lumps of matter capable of subjective experience and all others not? What is the missing ingredient? The answers are either non-existent, highly speculative (magical, if you will), or lead to idealism (everything is conscious).

Joobs, your response was revealing. No doubt what you meant to say was



That little omission is revealing. Could it be that you believe you are more than the sum of your neurological parts? :eek:
no.
I said what I mean. As I am my brain,if you damage my brain you damage me.

And yes, we are just lumps of matter. Just like my car, the sun, a diamond, my dog, my kid.

Eta: I. Do not think it diminishes me or my value I place on my family or anyone to say we are simply matter. As far as I am concerned, it is what matters.
 
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The number of units sold.
the only measure they care about.


As for your other comments, Pixa has addressed them well, so I don't need to go much further. All I can suggest is try to explain the fundamental difference between the processes given as examples of emergent properties (e.g., salt formation, turbulence, earthquakes, weather patterns, ...) and consciousness which doesn't rely upon "Lack of knowledge." We have yet to see any emergent property that requires magic, so why should consciousness?

Joobz, I don't remember you participating in the myriad of consciousness threads over the years (and a quick search confirms this), so you may not be aware of exactly what it is you're supporting. You might find this thread revealing:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162192&highlight=conscious&page=16

Pages 16-20. You'll learn all you need to know reading FedupWithFaith's exchange with Pixy. It's also entertaining in a soap-operaish way.
 
no.
I said what I mean. As I am my brain,if you damage my brain you damage me.

And yes, we are just lumps of matter. Just like my car, the sun, a diamond, my dog, my kid.

Joobz, your dog and kid are qualatatively different than "car", "sun", and "diamond". Care to guess why?

Eta: I. Do not think it diminishes me or my value I place on my family or anyone to say we are simply matter. As far as I am concerned, it is what matters.

Surely you wrote this wrong. You value your family because they are "simply matter"? Do you value your couch as much?
 
no.
I said what I mean. As I am my brain,if you damage my brain you damage me.

Then the converse should be true: If you are your brain, then if I damage you, I damage your brain, right? Tell me, how exactly does libel and slander cause brain damage?
 
Joobz, your dog and kid are qualatatively different than "car", "sun", and "diamond". Care to guess why?



Surely you wrote this wrong. You value your family because they are "simply matter"? Do you value your couch as much?

believe it or not, I bet if you tweak a part of the brain, you can make someone love their couch more than their family. Love doesn't actually measure value at all, since love is a particular summation of efforts within the brain. If you could feasibly manipulate these efforts you could make someone love a couch, or a doorknob provided you knew how.

Your family and children get the benefit of particular chemicals flowing through the brain to stimulate the response of love (oxytocin)

There's no actual in-between here Malerin, though it seems you're willing to construct one (for the life of me I cannot imagine why)

You love people because your brain, through the process of evolution and through biochemistry, is able to make you feel love. Again, all in the brain, no need to consider something else.

EDIT:

Then the converse should be true: If you are your brain, then if I damage you, I damage your brain, right? Tell me, how exactly does libel and slander cause brain damage?

Not so much brain damage, just a stimulus honed by association to give you a feeling of resentment. All in the brain though. I really hope you're not actually avoiding the many finding of neuroscience...

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1053811906006112

Not brain damage, just areas of the brain performing distinct efforts honed by evolution.

So, to address this crap:

The answers are either non-existent, highly speculative (magical, if you will), or lead to idealism (everything is conscious).

You're false trichotomy (if you will) is only a product of your lack of understanding, willingly or otherwise.
 
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Joobz, your dog and kid are qualatatively different than "car", "sun", and "diamond". Care to guess why?



Surely you wrote this wrong. You value your family because they are "simply matter"? Do you value your couch as much?

IMO, what you wrote is a willful and deliberate misinterpretation of what Joobz said.
 
IMO, what you wrote is a willful and deliberate misinterpretation of what Joobz said.

That's why I prefaced it with

Surely you wrote this wrong.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting what he's saying, but it sure sounds like he's saying the only thing that matters in his valuation of his family is that they are "simply matter".

How do you interpret it?
 
That little omission is revealing. Could it be that you believe you are more than the sum of your neurological parts? :eek:
... well, ...
Brains are just lumps of matter.
That little insertion is revealing. What you meant to say was:
Brains are lumps of matter.​
By saying that brains are lumps of matter, you're describing what we know. By saying that brains are "just" lumps of matter, all you're doing is injecting something you don't know that, by your particular mode of analysis, you couldn't possibly know; i.e., you shouldn't say "just" in this context because there's no way you can back it up.

We know matter exists because we're thrust into this world, and we find it, classify it, and categorize it. We know what matter can do because we look at it, poke it, and figure out what it does. Apparently, matter can do some fascinating things.

Some rote capabilities of matter are to simply have weight--I can use a sufficiently heavy (but not too heavy) conveniently sized solid object of any constitution as a door stop. Matter can also display written text--that's kind of cool. Some matter in my house can transmit written text to people across the world through a wire that runs into my wall. That is incredibly cool. But it gets even better--there are some lumps of matter that I have that can transmit sound and pictures of my nephews/nieces in real time many thousands of miles away to me, without even going across any wire!

Obviously you know of technologies like this, because we're not in a stone age, but the major point here is that these things really do have capabilities one can only describe as "magical", and the only way we really know about these capabilities, besides this strange group of priests and cultists who preach that there exist such things, is to actually get ahold of one and look to see that it can, indeed, actually do those things. This is so commonplace that we're not bothered at all by claims that matter can send my voice and pictures to another part of the country... I expect no sane person on this forum to refute this (and if they do, I suspect it's much more likely they're a troll).

Now, rocks can't transmit video pictures to me or voice across vast distances in real time. Neither can suns. My wireless cam and mike can do this though. But I suspect that they do it via technologies--transmitting signals across the air using electromagnetic waves to the cool blinkenlight thing wired into my wall, which is kindly transmitted to an arbitrary location of my choosing for a nominal fee by a local company.

Now if we consider, instead of these technological gizmos, some natural lumps of matter--such as this cute thing that runs around in my yard that appears to have made a residence under the steps--then it can do some fascinating things as well. It appears, to me, that this thing likes acorns. I'm just saying, that's what it looks like--and just as I think my camera can transmit videos across the country, I think this cute fuzzy lump of matter can like things.

So when you say:
Lumps of matter don't like or dislike things.
...then I'm suddenly curious. Do you not have cute fuzzy things in your yard that gather acorns?
They're just colletions of stuff.
That's partly true. That rock, that sun, this desktop, this wireless device, and that thing that has made a residence under the steps on the side of my house, are all collections of stuff. But none of them are "just" collections of stuff. They are really cool collections of stuff that can do fascinating things. I don't relegate their lack of capabilities a priori, I just look at them, and believe they can do what they seem to be doing.
Does a rock like rolling down a hill, or a star like producing energy?
Nope. Neither do they transmit video and pictures to my nephews and nieces thousands of miles away in real time. The cute fuzzy thing that has taken residence under the steps outside can't transmit video and pictures to my nephews and nieces thousands of miles away in real time either, nor can my wireless device like things. Apparently different arrangements of matter can do different things.
The materialist story is that when you arrange specific matter in a specific way (i.e., a brain), it can like and dislike things.
That seems to be the case. That cute fuzzy thing sure does seem to like nuts. It dislikes me, however, which is a pity; makes it really hard for it to stay still long enough to capture it on video (with my wireless device).
How is this possible? How does it work?
Don't know exactly; unfortunately, the fuzzy thing that takes residence under the steps wasn't made by engineers that talk English (or some language that translates into it), so we have to wait until the reverse engineering is complete. But a lot of it has been done. I could tell you some of the details of how those pictures get transmitted to my nephews and nieces in real time if you want to hear it.
Why are some lumps of matter capable of subjective experience and all others not?
At the high level, for the same reason that fuzzy thing that takes residence under my stairs, the rock, and that sun cannot transmit video to my nephews and nieces thousands of miles away in real time. Some arrangements of matter apparently cannot do what other arrangements of matter can.
What is the missing ingredient?
In terms of having a subjective experience, one notable missing ingredient is a subject. To have a subject you need an agency. Agencies of the sort we know about are entities that have collaborative planning capabilities, and represent the world in terms of world models. They have sensory apparatuses which perform a lot of very complicated work in order to come up with high level representations in those world model terms, which then get "tossed" into the collaborative planning entities' workspaces; we call such things percepts. The entire set of collaborative perception and planning (by which I include actions here) capability is the agency. Some such agencies reflect affinities to certain categories of represented real world objects, which they can recognize by percepts generated by their senses; we call that "liking".
The answers are either non-existent, highly speculative (magical, if you will), or lead to idealism (everything is conscious).
Or are based on observation, and no a priori rejection that matter is "just" matter and "cannot like things".
 
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