Materialism (championed by Darwinists) makes reason Impossible.

[Aepervius]

Malerin if REALLY NDE and OBE were real, people would be able to report details on picture which were purposefully put above the table of operation, and showing a random picture neither the doctor nor the patient knows, but somebody floating WOULD.

as far as i can tell, nobody ever reported a positive result for such experience for however long it has ran now. If there was one you would have heard it by now.

PS: yes I know about the red shoe UNVERIFIABLE anecdote. I am speaking of real VERIFIABLE experience here.

 

[punshhh]

You need to give up this tact. You can induce chemicals in the brain to fake NDE experiences ( hippies can attest )

Past life recollections of children are not indicative of a past life and there's been no real case for it other than anecdote ("Hey did you hear that this kid thought he was a WW2 fighter pilot? Yea, he said so after he learned about WW2 from the History Channel!")

I mean really Malerin, one skeptic to another...you belong in the CT/Paranormal sections, not the philosophical sections.

And to address the teleportation/clone phenomenon Malerin you're just playing a word game and it's beneath you (I think, you're coming off like Punshhh more and more)

If I have a 99 clones, they are each an individual replica of myself. Just because they are replicas doesn't mean my clones will share my consciousness, though our consciousness may run very similarly (it'd be the Captain Kirk robot replica screaming "Shoot him! I'm the real one!")

There's no sharing of consciousness; each brain is a closed system and over time experiences for each clone will be different.

Now how about I take a stab at you and your stupid NDE belief (and yes, it is stupid) if you think NDE's are evidence for a soul, you'd need to explain why the soul sucks so much at quitting before the game's over like an audience at a baseball stadium, and then you'd need to further explain how a soul will go back in because it was obviously VERY wrong.

You'd have to explain how a soul is able to perceive like NDE's claim they do: That they have senses, obviously visual senses, and that they have full brain capacity because many claim to recognize objects, where they are, they claim to recognize faces which requires a full brain function.

In essence, read my signature and feel free to describe how anything more than throwing "NDE's and children remembering past lives" into a discussion to validate your opinion actually helps you -.-

Materialists play word games when some one asks them what their precious matter is, of what is this pantomime of life constituted?

Perhaps they can explain where this pantomime is, perhaps it is a universe in a jar. Maybe everything is in jars, jars within jars.

Or when, did it pop into existence at some point in the past or was it eternally present?

Is it a word game to observe that materialism is adrift in a void, with no rhyme or reason?

 

[Brainache]

Materialists play word games when some one asks them what their precious matter is, of what is this pantomime of life constituted?

Perhaps they can explain where this pantomime is, perhaps it is a universe in a jar. Maybe everything is in jars, jars within jars.

Or when, did it pop into existence at some point in the past or was it eternally present?

Is it a word game to observe that materialism is adrift in a void, with no rhyme or reason?

OK Mr punshhh, can you tell me what souls are made of? Can you tell me what special property this soul substance has that regular matter doesn't?

It must be something smart, because apparently dumb old regular matter can't think or experience stuff, but souls can...

 

[punshhh]

Malerin if REALLY NDE and OBE were real, people would be able to report details on picture which were purposefully put above the table of operation, and showing a random picture neither the doctor nor the patient knows, but somebody floating WOULD.

as far as i can tell, nobody ever reported a positive result for such experience for however long it has ran now. If there was one you would have heard it by now.

PS: yes I know about the red shoe UNVERIFIABLE anecdote. I am speaking of real VERIFIABLE experience here.

I have direct personal experience of an aspect of consciousness which is not known to science, concerning the death of a pet cat.

I was compuss-mentus, sober and in full possession of my senses. I can think of no possible scientific explanation of the event.

However if I were to describe it here, it would be dismissed out of hand as just one more ill informed anectdotal claim, not even worth questioning.

 

[Akhenaten]

I have direct personal experience of an aspect of consciousness which is not known to science, concerning the death of a pet cat.

No you don't.

I was compuss-mentus, sober and in full possession of my senses. I can think of no possible scientific explanation of the event.

It must be one of the scientific explanations that you can't think of then.

However if I were to describe it here, it would be dismissed out of hand as just one more ill informed anectdotal claim, not even worth questioning.

This is just one more ill-informed anecdotal claim and is not even worth questioning.



ETA: You do, however, deserve some credit for "compuss-mentus".

 

[The Norseman]

I have direct personal experience of an aspect of consciousness which is not known to science, concerning the death of a pet cat.

I was compuss-mentus, sober and in full possession of my senses. I can think of no possible scientific explanation of the event.

However if I were to describe it here, it would be dismissed out of hand as just one more ill informed anectdotal claim, not even worth questioning.

Oh, I think you'd get quite a few questions, some sincere, some perhaps not. I think that the converse is more likely, however, than your claim being dismissed out of hand; it's far more likely that you'll dismiss others' possible scientific explanations of what you experienced, even with one or two who have a great deal more experience with science than you.

 

[Sideroxylon]

I have direct personal experience of an aspect of consciousness which is not known to science, concerning the death of a pet cat.

I was compuss-mentus, sober and in full possession of my senses. I can think of no possible scientific explanation of the event.

However if I were to describe it here, it would be dismissed out of hand as just one more ill informed anectdotal claim, not even worth questioning.

The problem with anecdotes:

 

[Aepervius]

I have direct personal experience of an aspect of consciousness which is not known to science, concerning the death of a pet cat.

I was compuss-mentus, sober and in full possession of my senses. I can think of no possible scientific explanation of the event.

However if I were to describe it here, it would be dismissed out of hand as just one more ill informed anectdotal claim, not even worth questioning.

Here is mine (anecdote) : after the death of my Beloved cat , I kept seeing shadow moving at the edge of my sight. I kept seeing him furtively. But looking more closely (with the center sight) it was only shadow, stuff in the sun moving with the wind, or even my other cat playing with a toy.

As far as I can tell it is a very human behavior. Did i jump to "my cat soul is wandering" ? No. I knew this was to be expected and was jsut my brain playing trick. It stopped very quickly, about the same time the loss feeling became bearable.

ETA: in case you are wondering, there *was* stuff moving at the edge of my sight before and after the death of my cat, but the LOSS feeling and the attempting to compensate that loss, made my brain analyze those shadow move as real movement and seek a cat where it was not.

The ledge between the abyss of irrationality and the solid ground of rationality can be much thinner than one expect , especially in moment of sadness.

 

[punshhh]

Oh, I think you'd get quite a few questions, some sincere, some perhaps not. I think that the converse is more likely, however, than your claim being dismissed out of hand; it's far more likely that you'll dismiss others' possible scientific explanations of what you experienced, even with one or two who have a great deal more experience with science than you.

Thanks Norseman for your interest, I respect your openness on such issues.

I will describe the event and lets see what weasel words folks like Akhenaten use to dismiss it.

I was returning from a four week holiday abroad with my family(except my older brother who had stayed at home).

I was last out of the car and approached the house a couple of minutes after the others had gone in. As soon as I got out of the car I experienced a powerful fealing of emotion hit me like a wave. It was rather like the emotional fealing of grief one experiences when told of the death of a loved one.
I was very puzzled, I had absolutely no idea of what could have happened.
So I went into the house, as I walked along the hallway, I noticed it was very quiet, as I would expect my parents and younger brother to be telling my older brother about the holiday.
As I approached the kitchen door where the others would be, I concluded that someone had died or there was some dreadful news, as I could think of no other explanation for the silence. I was shaking now and feeling sick. I went in and my family was there standing round and they didn't look all that upset.

Puzzled I went over to my younger brother to ask what had happened. He wispered to me that the cat had died while we were away. I breathed a deep sigh of relief as it was nothing more serious than that. I then joined the others in a reflective mournful feeling for the passing of an old ailing and loved pet cat.

Now can anyone offer a scientific explanation for my roller coaster ride of emotions during what was about 3 minutes?

 

[Darat]

For those with a Kindle Dale Purves "Brains: How They Seem to Work" is available for free at the moment (at least in the UK), it's an interesting read.

 

[Sideroxylon]

Thanks Norseman for your interest, I respect your openness on such issues.

I will describe the event and lets see what weasel words folks like Akhenaten use to dismiss it.

I was returning from a four week holiday abroad with my family(except my older brother who had stayed at home).

I was last out of the car and approached the house a couple of minutes after the others had gone in. As soon as I got out of the car I experienced a powerful fealing of emotion hit me like a wave. It was rather like the emotional fealing of grief one experiences when told of the death of a loved one.
I was very puzzled, I had absolutely no idea of what could have happened.
So I went into the house, as I walked along the hallway, I noticed it was very quiet, as I would expect my parents and younger brother to be telling my older brother about the holiday.
As I approached the kitchen door where the others would be, I concluded that someone had died or there was some dreadful news, as I could think of no other explanation for the silence. I was shaking now and feeling sick. I went in and my family was there standing round and they didn't look all that upset.

Puzzled I went over to my younger brother to ask what had happened. He wispered to me that the cat had died while we were away. I breathed a deep sigh of relief as it was nothing more serious than that. I then joined the others in a reflective mournful feeling for the passing of an old ailing and loved pet cat.

Now can anyone offer a scientific explanation for my roller coaster ride of emotions during what was about 3 minutes?

What alternatives to supernatural explanations can you come up with yourself?

 

[Mojo]

I have direct personal experience of an aspect of consciousness which is not known to science, concerning the death of a pet cat.

I was compuss-mentus, sober and in full possession of my senses. I can think of no possible scientific explanation of the event.

However if I were to describe it here, it would be dismissed out of hand as just one more ill informed anectdotal claim, not even worth questioning.

I can't say for certain that that would happen, but it will certainly be dismissed out of hand if you don't describe it.

 

[Aepervius]

Now can anyone offer a scientific explanation for my roller coaster ride of emotions during what was about 3 minutes?

The problem is that you have no way to really say whether the feeling you got was DUE to the cat dying, and the fact that you "I breathed a deep sigh of relief as it was nothing more serious than that." actually belies that the death of the cat should have had such a deep effect on you : "It was rather like the emotional fealing of grief one experiences when told of the death of a loved one.".

You simply associated both event together. Post hoc.

By the way the same things happens to me when the neighborhood is disquintingly silent. Does not mean people have died. jsut the silence give me bout of misgiving negative feeling as you got. But I know why, it was due to the environment I grew.

 

[punshhh]

What alternatives to supernatural explanations can you come up with yourself?

Something approximating an emotional telepathy.

 

[zooterkin]

For those with a Kindle Dale Purves "Brains: How They Seem to Work" is available for free at the moment (at least in the UK), it's an interesting read.

Ooh, thanks for that, downloaded now. David Eagleman's Incognito: The Secret Lives of the Brain also looks very interesting, but I'm waiting for the price to drop.

The problem is that you have no way to really say whether the feeling you got was DUE to the cat dying, and the fact that you "I breathed a deep sigh of relief as it was nothing more serious than that." actually belies that the death of the cat should have had such a deep effect on you : "It was rather like the emotional fealing of grief one experiences when told of the death of a loved one.".

You simply associated both event together. Post hoc.

By the way the same things happens to me when the neighborhood is disquintingly silent. Does not mean people have died. jsut the silence give me bout of misgiving negative feeling as you got. But I know why, it was due to the environment I grew.

Indeed; I would also venture to suggest that people get feelings of foreboding reasonably often, but don't tend to remember the occasions when nothing significant happens soon afterwards.

 

[zooterkin]

Something approximating an emotional telepathy.

From whom? Not the cat, clearly, and you said no-one seemed particularly upset. Even allowing such a thing were possible, how would you pick up an emotion that nobody was actually feeling?

 

[punshhh]

From whom? Not the cat, clearly, and you said no-one seemed particularly upset. Even allowing such a thing were possible, how would you pick up an emotion that nobody was actually feeling?

No not the cat, from my family, all five of them experienced an emotional shock at the same time.

There was strong emotion in the room when my older brother told the rest of my family what had happened. Which was about the same time, give or take a few seconds, as I experienced the strong emotion.

Also my older brother was very upset as he was responsible for the cat while my parents were away. He had been unable to contact us for a few days and was dreading having to tell my parents.

 

[Sideroxylon]

Something approximating an emotional telepathy.

What is emotional telepathy? It sounds like a supernatural explanation.

Anyway, poor word choice by me. "Supernatural" is a term with fundamental problems of definition.

Can you provided an explanation that makes use of phenomena that can be reliably verified by scientific methods? Let's apply Occam's Razor here.

 

[Robin]

Materialists play word games when some one asks them what their precious matter is, of what is this pantomime of life constituted?

Perhaps they can explain where this pantomime is, perhaps it is a universe in a jar. Maybe everything is in jars, jars within jars.

Or when, did it pop into existence at some point in the past or was it eternally present?

Is it a word game to observe that materialism is adrift in a void, with no rhyme or reason?

It is all word games on all sides. But some word games are better than others.

And which metaphysic is not adrift in a void with no rhyme or reason? We are all in the same boat in that respect.

 

[punshhh]

It is all word games on all sides. But some word games are better than others.

And which metaphysic is not adrift in a void with no rhyme or reason? We are all in the same boat in that respect.

Yes indeed, the owl and the pussycat.

Which side of the debate is the owl and which the pussycat, I wonder.

This is why as far as I am concerned the mind is not the means by which to know reality. Only the interpretive tool with which to contemplate it.