Materialism (championed by Darwinists) makes reason Impossible.

Before you cry foul, look here http://grouper.ieee.org/groups/scc28/sc4/Human Perception FINAL.pdf

"Human auditory perception of pulses of radiofrequency (RF) energy is a well-established phenomenon that is dependent upon the energy in a single pulse and not on average power density. RF-induced sounds can be characterized as the perception of subtle sounds because, in general, a quiet environment is required for the sounds to be heard. The sound is similar to other common sounds such as a click, buzz, hiss, knock or chirp. "

That is a mighty weak ass paper there.

When is the most recent paper 1986? and how many are vanity papers.


Really? Who cites advertisments?

This is crap:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/bem.10163/abstract
"This conclusion is supported by a comparison of pressure induced in the body by RF pulses to pressure associated with hazardous acoustic energy and clinical ultrasound procedures."

Why isn't this in PubMed, who is this Chou and why is he the vast majority of the papers in this stuff.

Sorry I call nonsense.

If you put this into PubMed 'auditory radio frequency", you get zero for this Chou, I call vanity publishing and looney journal letters.
 
... while driving on autopilot, I feel that I'm in control (as opposed to, say, that I'm simply shaking involuntarily in such a way as to just be happening to drive a car). But it doesn't feel like I was consciously aware of it.
ISTM that if you weren't consciously aware of being in control, the feeling that you were in control must be retrospective - you remember that you were driving. There is a linguistic difficulty here in the need to differentiate between 'self' as the whole person, the actor, and 'consciously aware self' that is the reflector.

And here you seem to be making a distinction between a sense of self and a sense of self-awareness, as I would. But the very act of drawing this distinction calls into question whether this "CEO" really exists as described.

It's the self that is the agency, not the self-awareness.
I agree - I think the problem is my clumsy expression. The consciously aware 'self' is informed and updated about the actions of the non(or less?)-conscious self. However, I suspect that the line between conscious and subconscious is pretty blurred. The 'CEO' is not the main actor, but an occasional adjudicator; present to direct general policy and resolve internal conflicts.
 
Last edited:
That is a mighty weak ass paper there.

When is the most recent paper 1986? and how many are vanity papers.


Really? Who cites advertisments?

This is crap:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/bem.10163/abstract
"This conclusion is supported by a comparison of pressure induced in the body by RF pulses to pressure associated with hazardous acoustic energy and clinical ultrasound procedures."

Why isn't this in PubMed, who is this Chou and why is he the vast majority of the papers in this stuff.

Sorry I call nonsense.

If you put this into PubMed 'auditory radio frequency", you get zero for this Chou, I call vanity publishing and looney journal letters.


You may.
I have not personally conducted any studies on the subject.
I know that the Frey Effect has been published in physiology journals.
Somehow, I find Wiki a more interesting source than your trashing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_auditory_effect
 
You may.
I have not personally conducted any studies on the subject.
I know that the Frey Effect has been published in physiology journals.
Somehow, I find Wiki a more interesting source than your trashing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_auditory_effect

Now what level of exposure does the efect in footnote 1 require?
Levy, Barry S.; Wagner, Gregory R.; Rest, Kathleen M. (2005). Preventing occupational disease and injury. American Public Health Association. p. 428. ISBN 9780875530437. http://books.google.com/?id=pM7DNkb...ry&cd=26#v=onepage&q=microwave injury&f=false.

I some how doubt that Chou was doing his alleged experiments at a microwave relay station, where there is considerable em radiation, was he?

The fact that Frey got something published in 1962 does not establish that Chou knows anything.

Did you actually read the references in the wiki article before you waved it around?

Try again. You really did not look though them did you, How many are from before 1980?

Why no more recent research then that?

we have as the most recent in the references

H. Lai. “Neurological Effects of Radiofrequency Electromagnetic Radiation” In: J.C. Lin (ed.), Advances in Electromagnetic Fields in Living Systems vol 1, Plenum, NY & London, p 27-80, 1994.

R.C. Beason and P. Semm. "Responses of neurons to an amplitude modulated microwave stimulus", Neurosci Lett 333: 175–78, 2002.
9you will note that no where does the word auditory or audio occur in the article:http://wildmonkeysects.com/data/beasond_semm_reponses_of_neurons.pdf)

J.A. Elder and C.K. Chou. "Auditory Responses to Pulsed Radiofrequency Energy", Bioelectromagnetics Suppl 8: S162-73, 2003.

Also if you actually read some of the references you would note what?

that thE clicking and popping heard by people working at microwave stations in not a direct effect of the MW radiation on the nerves in teh ear, but from the mechanical expansion of organ tissues. Caused by the MW radiation.

So guess what
NO DIRECT AUDITORY PERCEPTION OF RADIO WAVES
 
Last edited:
This is crap:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/bem.10163/abstract
"This conclusion is supported by a comparison of pressure induced in the body by RF pulses to pressure associated with hazardous acoustic energy and clinical ultrasound procedures."

Why isn't this in PubMed, who is this Chou and why is he the vast majority of the papers in this stuff.

Sorry I call nonsense.

If you put this into PubMed 'auditory radio frequency", you get zero for this Chou, I call vanity publishing and looney journal letters.


I'd be careful about calling journals not indexed by pubmed as "nonsense". Bioelectromagnetics has an impact factor of 2.8, which is low but not in the range one would expect from a "vanity press".

More informing the fact that the paper has zero citations according to the web of science. This means that in the past 8 years, no one deemed it worthy to cite, not even the authors. That's expected for conference proceedings, but not for a peer reviewed paper.
 
I'd be careful about calling journals not indexed by pubmed as "nonsense". Bioelectromagnetics has an impact factor of 2.8, which is low but not in the range one would expect from a "vanity press".

More informing the fact that the paper has zero citations according to the web of science. This means that in the past 8 years, no one deemed it worthy to cite, not even the authors. That's expected for conference proceedings, but not for a peer reviewed paper.

Correction, and thank you, I was not saying that BEM is a vanity press, just that some of Chou's articles are. They are publsihed outside any journal.

ETA: letter from a looney to a jouranl.
 
Last edited:
I would like to know, if my brain is a radio receiver for soul info, am I always getting the signal for my own soul, or am I at risk of picking up someone else's soul signal?
Hey, marplots, GET OUTTA MY BANDWIDTH! Wait, what? You're gonna do what? To whom? Go for it. :cool:
 
Hey, marplots, GET OUTTA MY BANDWIDTH! Wait, what? You're gonna do what? To whom? Go for it. :cool:

Does it sound paranoid if I claim someone else is using my soul while I am in a deep and dreamless sleep? I suffer the residuals. Things I never thought worth believing in are starting to sound reasonable.

Does an aluminum foil nightcap block soul emissions/reception? I think this should be a falsifiable hypothesis by way of experiment.
 
I'd be careful about calling journals not indexed by pubmed as "nonsense". Bioelectromagnetics has an impact factor of 2.8, which is low but not in the range one would expect from a "vanity press".

More informing the fact that the paper has zero citations according to the web of science. This means that in the past 8 years, no one deemed it worthy to cite, not even the authors. That's expected for conference proceedings, but not for a peer reviewed paper.

JA Elder and Chou get 40 citations.
Their abstract can be found on PubMed http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14628312

If you read the .pdf behind the link I posted a while back, no need to ask questions about the source of the EM radiation they used.
 
Last edited:
I posted the auditory responses to radiowave electromagnetic field here only to make a point about how weak the transmitter-receiver hypothesis in explaining human consciousness is.
 
ISTM that if you weren't consciously aware of being in control, the feeling that you were in control must be retrospective - you remember that you were driving.
This doesn't follow.

Most of the time when I walk, I'm not aware of it. On occasion, my leg falls asleep to the point that I lose sensation in the leg. When I try to walk, suddenly I'm very much aware of it. What's interesting is that there being feeling in the leg affects my ability to walk, even though I'm not consciously aware of the feeling (in fact I'm only consciously aware when something goes wrong when I try to walk--and I'm not even consciously aware of the goal of walking until that thing goes wrong).

This suggests that, in the nominal case, I feel my leg subconsciously. If that's the case, feeling isn't limited to consciousness--only the awareness of feeling. So it doesn't follow that I only retroactively "feel" when I reflect back on it. Only the tautology follows--that I'm only aware that I'm feeling when I reflect on it.
There is a linguistic difficulty here in the need to differentiate between 'self' as the whole person, the actor, and 'consciously aware self' that is the reflector.
My objection is that I think the self you're describing is a broken concept.

There are prerequisites for one to feel he is in control--and they correspond to particular types of sensations. There are various disorders of control and oddities that demonstrate that these are real sensations (alien hand syndrome, schizophrenia, intentional binding, involuntary movements such as tics, and legs that fell asleep).

This in mind, at the highest level, we have Joe. J is only the "consciously aware" part of Joe. J feels that J is in control. But really, Joe is in control. So J's feeling that J is in control is an illusion. But quite similarly to my leg asleep scenario, "Joe" feels "Joe" is in control anyway, when "he" is, and when "he" isn't, there's a conscious alarm (this much seems to fit some of Eagleman's descriptions).

But this doesn't work, because the feeling of control is produced by Joe. So, when J is feeling a sense of control, J is actually feeling Joe in control. Furthermore, J is only in conscious awareness when J happens to be self reflecting, which is rare. So in those other cases, Joe is feeling that Joe is in control (and when not, Joe is made consciously aware of it quite quickly).

Furthermore, awareness is the state of being aware of something--that is an exercise in conceiving, in information gathering. Conscious awareness is a mode of awareness. So it doesn't make sense to me to describe conscious awareness as ever "doing" anything, where doing is understood in the agency sense of initiation of goal-based behaviors. It could cause something to be done, by virtue of communicating this concept, but it in itself is simply the conception.

I'm very suspicious that there's even a coherent entity to talk about that is the "conscious you", where "conscious" is used as a qualifier.
The consciously aware 'self' is informed and updated about the actions of the non(or less?)-conscious self.
I'm not sure these are two different pieces. I think consciousness is a mode of awareness, not a type of self. I don't see any coherent "type of self" consciousness to talk about, so I prefer dealing only with a "self" that has a "conscious mode" of awareness.

All of the teleological actions are of the same sort. They deal with the same sort of models we talk about in language, and the same sort of goal-based actions, whether they are unconsciously performed or consciously performed. I don't think these concepts are made once for the "conscious self" and once for the "unconscious self", and communicated from the unconscious to the conscious when the need arises. I think they just exist singularly as concepts, and they're conscious when the spotlight hits them, unconscious otherwise.

Likewise, I don't think there's a separate coherent "conscious self"; any aspect of yourself that you can be conscious of, can involve itself in an unconscious activity. It doesn't make it a new aspect--it's the same thing, only without the spotlight on it.

I would also like to note that there's almost always a singularity of purpose in our actions, for normal subjects. Either I'm driving on autopilot, or I'm driving consciously; there's never a fight between the two. Since there's a lot of things that go on subconsciously, this suggests a collaboration. Rather than a separate internal mind discussion for every kind of potentially conflicting action between subconscious decision makers and conscious ones, a simple global teleological "agency", which simply has a spotlight that can shine here or there, is in my mind a more workable model than a "conscious self"/"unconscious self" one.
However, I suspect that the line between conscious and subconscious is pretty blurred. The 'CEO' is not the main actor, but an occasional adjudicator; present to direct general policy and resolve internal conflicts.
The concept of "CEO" conveys what I believe to be a false notion--that conscious awareness is itself an "agency", can itself initiate actions, has its own feelings/sensations (especially that there's no such thing as a feeling unless there is a conscious awareness of it), and so on. I think it's better to think of conscious awareness as a sort of highly focused attention, than a separate thing with a separate copy/control line to any idea or notion we're capable of being consciously aware of.
 
I would also like to note that there's almost always a singularity of purpose in our actions, for normal subjects. Either I'm driving on autopilot, or I'm driving consciously; there's never a fight between the two. Since there's a lot of things that go on subconsciously, this suggests a collaboration. Rather than a separate internal mind discussion for every kind of potentially conflicting action between subconscious decision makers and conscious ones, a simple global teleological "agency", which simply has a spotlight that can shine here or there, is in my mind a more workable model than a "conscious self"/"unconscious self" one.

A very interesting way of looking at it, thanks. Are these your own ideas or can I read more elsewhere?
 
"When I try to walk, suddenly I'm very much aware of it"

Actually : no the most probably process is as follow : Your consciensious is the last being aware. The first to be aware is your automated limbic system, trying to make you go in equilibrium with a shaky asleep leg. Then your subconscious knows it and take action to wake it up (decide move the leg etc...). Finally your conscious is made "aware" of all those process, but he is the last one in the line, and more like after the fact long happened. ETA: the illusion of consciousness is probably the resulting illusion after all parallel process in the brain have come to a conclusion for all action/train of thought.
 
Last edited:
I posted the auditory responses to radiowave electromagnetic field here only to make a point about how weak the transmitter-receiver hypothesis in explaining human consciousness is.
Yep, it's broken in all sorts of ways. If all neural interactions had to be broadcast to and from a point outside your head while retaining observed fidelity, the energy involved would cook you instantly.
 
Yep, it's broken in all sorts of ways. If all neural interactions had to be broadcast to and from a point outside your head while retaining observed fidelity, the energy involved would cook you instantly.

Clearly the "energy" involved here is the magical thinking type that is yet to be discovered by science. Being whatever you want it to be, it is immune to such problems.
 
Clearly the "energy" involved here is the magical thinking type that is yet to be discovered by science. Being whatever you want it to be, it is immune to such problems.

The Power is evident only to those who Believe.

If we stop and look at the numbers for a while.
We have 10^11 neurons with 10^14 synapses connecting to make networks and networks of networks and so forth. Eric Kandel (Nobel 2000) demonstrated learning in a circuit consisting of three neurons.

This should give an idea of what kind of processing capacity we are carrying between our ears. It can (and does) run virtual reality 3D full color with smell and other senses. It can do it using sensory input when we are awake and from memories and imagination when we sleep.

The question today is not any longer whether it is doing it or not, researchers are getting into details such as where is the neuronal seat of pride or shame, what is the marker of a sensory input becoming available to our attention etc.

The only problem is that they are using multisyllable words to report their studies and you need to look up things from a textbook if you want to understand what is being said.
Why bother if you already know the truth?
 
I posted the auditory responses to radiowave electromagnetic field here only to make a point about how weak the transmitter-receiver hypothesis in explaining human consciousness is.

Thank you, that makes more sense, I thought yuo were a proponent of the theory that there was direct auditory perception of EM.

If I was rude or offended you I apologize.
 
The Power is evident only to those who Believe.
That would be teh concern about any fo cusing of energy in the brain. :D
If we stop and look at the numbers for a while.
We have 10^11 neurons with 10^14 synapses connecting to make networks and networks of networks and so forth. Eric Kandel (Nobel 2000) demonstrated learning in a circuit consisting of three neurons.

This should give an idea of what kind of processing capacity we are carrying between our ears. It can (and does) run virtual reality 3D full color with smell and other senses.
I would say that it is a little more fragmented that that, there are some great kludges that giv ethe impression of a whole, but it is partly an aillusion. (The wholeness of teh perceptions.0
It can do it using sensory input when we are awake and from memories and imagination when we sleep.

The question today is not any longer whether it is doing it or not, researchers are getting into details such as where is the neuronal seat of pride or shame, what is the marker of a sensory input becoming available to our attention etc.

The only problem is that they are using multisyllable words to report their studies and you need to look up things from a textbook if you want to understand what is being said.
Why bother if you already know the truth?

Are you being sarcastic or presenting a POV?
 
Our reality is an illusion that is tested against sensory input every once in a while.

One can get the idea of the fragmentation in various disease states.

For instance, if a baby has a congenital cataract and the operation is too late, the person will not have any use of his eyesight. He has color, form and movement floating around in space in a dizzying mess as the different cortices did not have input from the retina when synapses were supposed to form.

Or, after a stroke you get a feeling that all the people around you are impostors. They are not the ones they pretend to be. A little area that helps in recognition has been severed. You KNOW that the person is who he is supposed to be but it does not feel right.

Or you can lose the memory of faces selectively. You look at the mirror and say to yourself "that is a mirror so the person I see in the there has to be me".

It is scattered and fragmented but somehow we get a continuous story.
We blink our eyes and the film does not stop. We turn our head and the pan is nice and smooth...unless you have something wrong with your movement detectors and each time you move your head the world shakes and rolls so that you get sea sick.

Yes, I consult textbooks while reading the texts.
Slow reading since I am not a neuroscientist.
The "why bother if you already know the truth" was sarcasm.
Because I bother and I see lots of others who don't.
 

Back
Top Bottom