"Master Race" - A Term Not Used By The Nazis

[dudalb]

Oh, I love a good BS from people who have no clue what they're talking about. Please continue

"Deutschland über alles" was never meant in the sense of "Germany ruling over everyone", but simply "Germany above all" in the sense of priorities or importance. It's not an invitation to imperialism, but simply about patriotism and unity.

And I think the "from-to" verses at the beginning give enough of a clue that it simply describes the geographic extent of Germany, not some claim to anything else.

It also helps to remember that it was written in 1841. The Holy Roman Empire had been disbanded in 1806 and Germany was now a bunch of disjointed provinces which would not be united again until 1871. You'll notice that 1841 is smack-dab in the middle of that interval. At the time there was no Germany which could conquer anyone else or anything. The thing for which a lot of people were pushing was simply that Germany should become united again, and "Germany above all" was really simply about that: from here to there, and from that end to that other end, we're all Germans and (a united) Germany is more important than all else.

Maybe it's a bit laying it thick, but otherwise it's as benign as it gets.

Basically, it's akin to saying in the USA that the union is more important than anything else. Sure, a lot of people would disagree and say that the state rights are more important, but it's nevertheless not an invitation to conquer anyone else or anything.

In fact, it _is_ akin to "One nation under God", in that it puts the emphasis on "one nation".

Actually, Germany was pretty much " a bunch of disjointed provinces" since the Treaty of Westphilia in 1648. The HRE did not have much of an existence after that outside the Hapsburg's crown lands.
The Thirty Years War is a fascination of mine. Just got through reading Peter Wilson's new 900 Page history of it.

 

[Shadowdweller]

Hitler, in Mein Kampf, devotes at least an entire chapter toward genetic purity. There is zero room for ambiguity with respect to concepts of "culture". For example:

This urge for the maintenance of the unmixed breed, which is a phenomenon that prevails throughout the whole of the natural world, results not only in the sharply defined outward distinction between one species and another but also in the internal similarity of characteristic qualities which are peculiar to each breed or species. The fox remains always a fox, the goose remains a goose, and the tiger will retain the character of a tiger.

Likewise, regardless of how one chooses to translate "herrenvolk", Hitler makes it abundantly clear that he favors (-ed) a master-slave relationship with the so-called aryans at the top. The particular buzzwords used are irrelevant.

The pacifist-humanitarian idea may indeed become an excellent one when the most superior type of manhood will have succeeded in subjugating the world to such an extent that this type is then sole master of the earth.

For the establishment of superior types of civilization the members of inferior races formed one of the most essential pre-requisites. They alone could supply the lack of mechanical means without which no progress in possible. It is certain that the first stages of human civilization were not based so much on the use of tame animals as on the employment of human beings who were members of an inferior race.

(Above quoted from James Murphy translation; publisher: Hurst and Blackett LTD. - 1942)

 

[Shadowdweller]

Italians and Japanese were considered Aryans too, actually.

It's funny, really.

On one hand the Japanese -- a people which is really every bit as Altaic as the Chinese -- got classified as short, black-haired, slanted-eyed Aryans just because they wanted to ally with the Germans and had a fleet. On the other hand the Chinese, who had been courted heavily by the Germans up to that point for their resources, got downgraded to subhumans just because the Japanese really wanted to attack them.

This actually is not the case, at least not originally. Ironically, given the later alliance, Hitler specifically points out the Japanese as a race (in Mein Kampf) that through some nefarious and ill-defined process managed to destroy the aryan race that were the "real" creators of everything good within the Japanese state and then somehow managed to steal all the advancements and trappings of that former culture:

We may therefore draw the conclusion that, just as the present Japanese development has been due to Aryan influence, [last paragraph claims that modern Japanese civilization is only possible because of European influence] so in the immemorial past an outside influence and an outside culture brought into existence the Japanese culture of that day. This opinion is very strongly supported by the fact that the ancient civilization of Japan actually became fossilized and petrified. Such a process of senility can happen only if a people loses the racial cell which originally had been creative or if the outside influence should be withdrawn after having awakened and maintained the first cultural developments in that region.

(As above, quoted from James Murphy translation as published by Hurst and Blackett LTD.)

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Actually, Germany was pretty much " a bunch of disjointed provinces" since the Treaty of Westphilia in 1648. The HRE did not have much of an existence after that outside the Hapsburg's crown lands.
The Thirty Years War is a fascination of mine. Just got through reading Peter Wilson's new 900 Page history of it.

In all fairness, Germany had been on a downwards slope in that aspect ever since the Investiture Controversy, and each mishap from there just made it even more disjointed. Westphalia probably marked the rock bottom point, but, technically, the complete and official dissolution came in 1806. But I guess each date has its merits. Take your pick.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

This actually is not the case, at least not originally. Ironically, given the later alliance, Hitler specifically points out the Japanese as a race (in Mein Kampf) that through some nefarious and ill-defined process managed to destroy the aryan race that were the "real" creators of everything good within the Japanese state and then somehow managed to steal all the advancements and trappings of that former culture:



(As above, quoted from James Murphy translation as published by Hurst and Blackett LTD.)

I was talking about the later classification, because of the silly contradiction in it. But, as usual, thanks for filling in the extra info.

 

[Moss]

The whole Japanese Herrenmenschen thing is probably a thing from the mystic mind of Himmler, not Hitler. Himmler was totally fascinated both by Indian kshatriya and Japanese Bushi-do and wanted to make those texts reading material for his SS "warriormonks".

 

[dudalb]

In all fairness, Germany had been on a downwards slope in that aspect ever since the Investiture Controversy, and each mishap from there just made it even more disjointed. Westphalia probably marked the rock bottom point, but, technically, the complete and official dissolution came in 1806. But I guess each date has its merits. Take your pick.

Wilson's book ..which seems set to become the standard work in English on the 30 years war..goes to great lengths to show how disfunctional the HRE was before the War started. The Defenstration of Prague just caused it to beyond the breaking point.

 

[Skeptic]

Wilson's book ..which seems set to become the standard work in English on the 30 years war..goes to great lengths to show how disfunctional the HRE was before the War started.

As Russel famously said, the Holy Roman Empire was never holy, never Roman, and certainly never an empire. Not that the Austro-Hungarian empire was any better -- as Eddie Izzard said, it was "famous for... bugger all! All it ever did was collapse like a souffle..."

 

[ddt]

Wilson's book ..which seems set to become the standard work in English on the 30 years war..goes to great lengths to show how disfunctional the HRE was before the War started. The Defenstration of Prague just caused it to beyond the breaking point.

Of course, before that, in a practical sense, the power of an emperor had always depended on his own hausmacht and how much allies he personally could get behind him. See, e.g., the Welf-Staufer conflicts, and how after Frederick II, the electors for a while purposely elected insignificant nobles to be emperor.

Also legally, the theoretical power of the emperor had been diminished over the centuries - Charles IV Golden Bull comes to mind, and the 1555 Augsburg Peace. The Peace of Westphalia in that respect reduced "emperor" to only a title and officially made the German states sovereign. The fact that nobody had challenged the Habsburgs for the title since Francis I in 1519 shows also how little interest the title held.

 

[dudalb]

Yeah, the 30 Years War was brough about largely by Ferdinand's attempts to regain imperial power, and make all the pricipalaties in the Empire as subserviant to him as the Crown Hapsburg lands (Austria and what is now Czechoslovakia) were. His mistake was combining this with attempting to "Re Catholicize" Germany, which turned a great many Protestent princes who had not supported the initail Bohemian Rebellion against him, and scared the major Protestent Powers such as Sweden into intervening against him.
He was aslo stupid enough to alientate Frace, which, although a Catholic nation, put nation interest above religion and sided with the Protestents when they felt that the HRE was threatening French territory in Eastern France.

 

[ddt]

Yeah, the 30 Years War was brough about largely by Ferdinand's attempts to regain imperial power, and make all the pricipalaties in the Empire as subserviant to him as the Crown Hapsburg lands (Austria and what is now Czechoslovakia) were.

As a nitpick: I don't think the imperial crown was directly in dispute. However, the Bohemian estates ousted him as King of Bohemia, and at the time, that was the most important land of the Habsburgs, and Prague their residence. Of course, another Bohemian king could jeopardize a future election as emperor for a Habsburg, with Brandenburg, Saxony and the Palatinate all protestant.

His mistake was combining this with attempting to "Re Catholicize" Germany, which turned a great many Protestent princes who had not supported the initail Bohemian Rebellion against him, and scared the major Protestent Powers such as Sweden into intervening against him.

I guess the first reaction of any prince, when another is ousted by the commoners, is: that could happen to me too. And was Frederick V of the Palatinate a Lutheran or a Calvinist? The Palatinate has always been a calvinist stronghold, still is more or less.

He was aslo stupid enough to alientate Frace, which, although a Catholic nation, put nation interest above religion and sided with the Protestents when they felt that the HRE was threatening French territory in Eastern France.

Did the Habsburgs actively alienate France? I had the impression France rather used the opportunity to weaken the Habsburgs - or rather, to keep them from getting too strong when the protestant side in the war was on its low. The French-Habsburg rivalry was a mainstay in European politics of the 16th and 17th century.

 

[The Fallen Serpent]

As Russel famously said, the Holy Roman Empire was never holy, never Roman, and certainly never an empire. Not that the Austro-Hungarian empire was any better -- as Eddie Izzard said, it was "famous for... bugger all! All it ever did was collapse like a souffle..."

On Jeapardy, one of the final questions was about the HRE. I do not remember how it fully went, but included "... was neither of its three name parts."

 

[dudalb]

As a nitpick: I don't think the imperial crown was directly in dispute. However, the Bohemian estates ousted him as King of Bohemia, and at the time, that was the most important land of the Habsburgs, and Prague their residence. Of course, another Bohemian king could jeopardize a future election as emperor for a Habsburg, with Brandenburg, Saxony and the Palatinate all protestant.


I guess the first reaction of any prince, when another is ousted by the commoners, is: that could happen to me too. And was Frederick V of the Palatinate a Lutheran or a Calvinist? The Palatinate has always been a calvinist stronghold, still is more or less.


Did the Habsburgs actively alienate France? I had the impression France rather used the opportunity to weaken the Habsburgs - or rather, to keep them from getting too strong when the protestant side in the war was on its low. The French-Habsburg rivalry was a mainstay in European politics of the 16th and 17th century.

Fredrick of the Palantine was a Calvinist.

Yeah, the French/Hapsburg rivalry was SOP for much of the 16th and 17th Century.
But at the time of the 30 Years war, France's main concern was the Spanish Branch of the Family. They wanted to avoid involvment with the fuss in Germany. BY supporting some of the moves that Spain was making upon French Territory ,the Austrian Branch invited French support of the Anti Hapsburgs princes in Germany, which might otherwise not have happened.
The Irony is the Austrian Hapsburg got little support from Spain, which did not want to get involved in the Civil War In Germany, preferring to concentrate on their feuds with France and Holland. Austria earned the active entmity of France and got little in return.

 

[TheAnachronism]

Plus, for 1841 a little patriotic chest-thumping is at most quaint compared to the "manifest destiny", "white man's burden" or "mission to civilize" ideas that were doing the rounds in the rest of the world

In addition to understanding the political situations of the era, one should also take into account the literary landscape at the time that Das Lied er Deutschen was written. Generally, the German literature during this period (in German literary history, it is broken up into the periods known as Junges Deutschland and Vormärz) was very politically reactionary. The poem, written by August Heinrich Hoffmann von Fallersleben, is a nice summation of the patriotic wishes of the period, which is why it survived in its current form as a national anthem; however, it's in the same vein as almost all the rest of Hoffmann von Fallersleben's other short poetical works, which are grouped into a literary category known as Tendenzpoesie, which is almost completely unique to this time period.

Other authors were dwelling on the same political themes and ideals in their works, although most of them were not as quintessensial for a nice little patriotic anthem. Take this poem by Heinrich Heine:

I once had a beautiful fatherland.
The oak trees
Grew so high there, the violets gently nodded.
It was a dream.
It kissed me in German, it spoke in German
(One can hardly believe it,
It sounded so good) the phrase: "I love you!"
It was a dream.

Both Heine's poem and Das Lied der Deutschen are expressing a similar longing for a new Germany--both authors felt severed from their homeland and wanted political reform and unified country. That Hoffmann von Fallersleben expresses this with a clear patriotic ideal instead of immersing himself in the dashed dreams with which the current state of the country fills him (like Heine) does not make him an advocate of a country that deserved to rule and make others subservient.

 

[Mondial]

This article by Carlos Porter alleges that the original national socialists didn't use the words master race and that it was an invention of their enemies - namely Jews and communists and has entered common usage through repetition millions of times in books, newspapers, movies and tv shows www.cwporter.com/rauschningnote.htm
The master race scenario is used to try and discredit national socialism by linking it to the alleged "holocaust" which has been debunked See www.holocaustdenialvideos.com and www.nazigassings.com

On the subject of race the American media can't even tell the truth about the Berlin Olympics. This article is from a British newspaper - www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/olympics/6008196/Adolf-Hitler-did-shake-hands-with-Jesse-Owens.html

 

[Sledge]

In what way is the American media lying?

 

[BaaBaa]

"German racialism has been deliberately distorted. It never was anti-other race...National Socialist racialism was not against the other races, it was for its own race. It aimed at defending and improving its race and wished that all other races did the same for themselves. This was demonstrated when the Waffen SS enlarged its ranks to include 60,000 Islamic SS troops."

So the fact that these were Yugoslavian Muslims, levied in an area where the German armed forces were engaged in extensive anti-partisan actions is actually an example of the esteem that they were held in, rather than an effort to deploy more experienced forces in other areas?

Hilter must have been really busy, what with desegregating the Wehrmacht and developing atomic weapons.

 

[fullflavormenthol]

I can see the cleansing of History, Literature and Arts is continuing. Can't say I didn't see it coming, but I can't say I am too happy about it either.

Oh and I think the OP is poopy just to keep on point and all.

 

[Alferd_Packer]

When der fuehrer says we is de master race
We heil (Pttttbt) heil (Pttttbt)right in der fueher's face
Not to love der fuehrer is a great disgrace
So we heil (Pttttbt) heil (Pttttbt) right in der fuehrer's face

When Herr Goebbels says we own the world and space
We heil (Pttttbt) heil (Pttttbt) right in Herr Goebbels' face

When Herr Goring says they'll never bomb dis place
We heil (Pttttbt) heil (Pttttbt) right in Herr Goring's face

Are we not he supermen Aryan pure supermen
Ja we are the supermen (super duper supermen)
Is this Nutsy land so good
Would you leave it if you could
Ja this Nutsy land is good
We would leave it if we could
We bring the world to order
Heil Hitler's world to order
Everyone of foreign race
Will love der fuehrer's face
When we bring to the world dis order

 

[ktesibios]

I think if we start a discussion of National Anthems, we had better all get drunk first- to spare ourselves the embarassment of having to look up the words and of then actually reading them.
At least "Deutschland" has a good tune, unlike our Handel-inspired ode to Hanoverian royalty...Bloody Germans get everywhere. I'll take Beethoven and Schiller over all of them.

Hey at least you guys have an anthem that can be sung without getting drunk first. The tune of "The Star-spangled Banner" is from an English drinking song, "To Anacreon in Heaven" and it can only be sung properly by drunks.

Go ahead- just try to hit the high notes without a snootful. I dare ya.