Martial Arts Philosophy

[Doctor X]

I was not going to post this but . . . well, now it seems relevant.

I discussed the subject of chi and that with my late teacher--you have to imagine a thick Estonian accent to truly appreciate it--he told a story:

"There has never been a decent Chinese [Kung Fu--Ed.] fighter. [The old sensei enjoyed his generalizations.--Ed.] A few years ago, some Kung Fu experts fought some Tai kickboxers. The Tai kickboxers kicked the ◊◊◊◊ out of them!

'Well,' complainted the Chinese fighters, 'that was because we were wearing gloves!' They could not do their 'secret moves' [Sensei demonstrates "Secret Hand Moves of Doom"--Ed.]. So the Tai kickboxers told them to take their gloves off . . . and they kicked the ◊◊◊◊ out of them again!!"

So . . . are the Tai kickboxers more spiritual?

The Okinawans are not very spiritual in the sense of Martial Arts as Religion, nor, apparently, where their Chinese teachers. Ask them about "chi" and they sort of stare at you. Ask them about pressure points and they--after taking you to the ground--explain they grabbed you "where it REALLY HURTS!!"

What seems to matter is the training rather than the fluff.

--J.D.

 

[thaiboxerken]

"There has never been a decent Chinese [Kung Fu--Ed.] fighter. [The old sensei enjoyed his generalizations.--Ed.] A few years ago, some Kung Fu experts fought some Tai kickboxers. The Tai kickboxers kicked the ◊◊◊◊ out of them!"

This isn't just a story, it's a documented event. These kung-fu fighters were "Chi-masters" to top it all off. Most of them went home in stretchers in the no gloved event. Thing is, the Thai-boxers were wearing gloves (thus giving an advantage to the Chi-masters).

 

[Doctor X]

TaiKickboxerKen:

I would like the details if you have them. You can PM me if you wish.

Regarding Chinese fighters--as I noted [You noted?--Ed.]--my teacher enjoyed his generalizations. He refered to the "chi" masters and "Kungfu" types selling.

The roots of karate come from China. Many Okinawan styles--and Japanese karate is based on an Okinawan style--derive from China--with blending--the guys hung out together. The had respect for their Chinese teachers, certainly.

They were not taught "chi," apparently, and have done very well without it.

It appears quite a few Chinese practitioners do the same--succeed without the need of mysticism.

--J.D.

 

[thaiboxerken]

http://www.angelfire.com/nj/thaiboxing/vskungfu.html

In 1974 a challenge at Lumpinee Stadium, Bangkok resulted in some of Muay Thai’s finest moments. Kung-Fu masters were being knocked out before the end of first round. Despite their power and strength, demonstrated by the smashing of bricks with their bare hands, they were unable to compete with the rapid firing combos of Muay Thai. The Thai Fighters were able to find all kinds of openings with the traditional Kung-fu stances. In some of the fights the kung-fu masters were unable to land a single blow. At this 1974 challenge, most of the fights ended in knock outs, demonstrating the affectivness of Muay Thai that so many NHB fighters have come to embrace in their arsenals. The Chinese soon after created Sanshou as a way to teach their fighters a watered down version of Muay Thai, similar to the Japanese demise of Karate, created kick boxing as an answer to Muay Thai.

http://www.realfighting.com/1001/coban.htm

In 1974, top fighters from Japan, Hong Kong, Singapore and Malaysia descended upon the Thai capital to break the myth of the invincible Muay Thai fighter. This was the heyday of martial arts. Enter the Dragon was released a year earlier and Kung Fu, Karate and Taekwondo were enjoying the height of their popularity. Billed as the fight of the century, many Kung Fu practitioners were expecting the Thais to be humbled; but as it turned out, nearly all the non-Thai participants were knocked out cold under 30 seconds.


After the formation of San Shou, china has fared decently against the thai fighters.... the in sport of San Shou.

 

[Guest]

The first link you gave shows two pictures. The first one, is correct date and place, but the second one is from 1977 or 1978, not 1974.

Also in 1974, there were many fights. There were fights at Lumpini, Kanamlong, Kaula Lumpur, and Rajchadamnern stadiums.

If one looks hard, one can find articles like:

http://martialartinstitute.com/todays_topic_9_applied_wing_chun_in_thailand.htm

which talk about "Kung fu" practicioners beating muay thai practicioners in matches.

I, of course, think that articles like this, or article like yours, prove absolutely nothing either way. If anything, the prove that sometimes thai boxers can beat kung fu, and sometimes kung fu can beat thai boxers.


----
... nearly all the non-Thai participants were knocked out cold under 30 seconds.
----


However, that is a complete fabrication.


I'd also like to know who these "kung fu masters" were. Were they amateurs? I don't know. Your links are clearly pro-thai boxing, so I can see how it would show off thai boxing more by calling them "kung fu masters".


For a fairer article, even though it is on a san shou site, here is

http://www.sanshou.org/docs/sanvthai.html

 

[Doctor X]

If anything, the prove that sometimes thai boxers can beat kung fu, and sometimes kung fu can beat thai boxers.

Provided they do not waste their time with chi. . . .

--J.D.

 

[Tricky]

LOL. How quickly this degenerated from a philosophical discussion to a pissing match.

 

[HarryKeogh]

but if you dont grasp the spirtual aspect of the martial arts you will never be able to jump up 15' vertically over brick walls into the other clan's training school to fight for you master's honor.

cue the peter cetera.

 

[Tricky]

Yeah, we are all guilty. Even you said:

----
I haven't read the whole thing, but doubt that it will contain anything of substance. The very first one said something that I consider to be one of the stupidest platitudes ever uttered.
....
----

Hey! That was about the philosophy, not who would win if Tai fought Chi (or whatever).

 

[thaiboxerken]

Even the chinese learned the hard way that training is most important. After the Thaiboxers beat the "Chi" masters, they took their training up a few notches and are now competitive. They did not simply take their "Chi meditation" up a few notches.

In short, they took out the fluff.

 

[Doctor X]

Someone far more important than I first made the observation "a punch is a punch, a kick is a kick" when commenting on the various long-distance micturition contests martial artists often engage in.

I think people "bad mouth" areas they are afraid of. Thus someone who does not spar, says "sparing is not REAL fighting." Someone who does not kick well pooh poohs Tai Kwon Do. Et cetera ad nauseum.

That having been said, the martial arts provides a wonderful paradigm for skepticism. If I claim to have the Most Powerful Kick of Doom [All Rights Reserv'd.--Ed.] for some reason other martial artists want to see it.

If it works . . . neat!

If it does not . . . I have two choices--either accept the technique is not so great or my application is not so great, or I can make up a story.

Much of the chi stuff involves stories--"Oh western science cannot possibly. . . ."

I recall well the "great Sifu" who claimed that he could push away attackers without touching them. In the same claim he stated that the target has to be relaxed.

I am unsure how to make an attacker relax. . . .

Or, as a teacher of mine put it after an "invader" punched him a few times to no effect:

"One of two things: either I'm very good, or you suck. Probably a bit of both."

--J.D.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Hehhe.. In Phoenix, some kid trained at the local "Shaolin Kung Fu" place and learned "death touch" Dim Mak and how to use "Chi". This guy claimed that he could even block strikes using nothing but Chi. Well, a match had been set up in the ring. After the bell rang, my friend just shuffled over and kicked the guy.. footjab to the sternum. It was enough to end the fight.

"You didn't focus your chi" said the guy's corner-man.

"Yes, and he forgot to block the kick as well." Said my couch.

I wonder why all of these "Chi" masters never seem to make it into the UFC or other martial art events and win. Why don't "chi" powers ever end up on tape or in the ring?

 

[Tricky]

Forget religion just for a second...

Here is some philosophy- some martial arts stories:

http://w3.blackbeltmag.com/bbkids/empty/

Okay, back to the original philosophy link. From the second story, here is another platitude I find silly

"Expect the unexpected"

If you expect it, then, how can it be unexpected?

 

[thaiboxerken]

If you expect it, then, how can it be unexpected?

Yes, it's basically just filler material in a motivation speech.

 

[OdderMensch]

"hit hard, hit often, and when possible, hit first."

and a sign on the ceiling of a place I spar, "if you can read this, you're losing."

one I've always liked is, "the sage does no great things"

and one more, that I hope to be able to use someday :"if you really think kung fu can't fight, I will disavow you of that notion."

 

[Guest]

Re: Re: Martial Arts Philosophy

Okay, back to the original philosophy link. From the second story, here is another platitude I find silly
"Expect the unexpected"
If you expect it, then, how can it be unexpected?

Perhaps they are using two different uses of the word "expect" in the same sentence?

 

[Tricky]

Re: Re: Re: Martial Arts Philosophy

Perhaps they are using two different uses of the word "expect" in the same sentence?

Yes, and that annoys me like using the word "obey" two different ways in the same syllogism. Obviously they mean, "Train yourself to recognize and adapt to new situations quickly." I guess that doesn't sound so good in a sound bite.

 

[corplinx]

Hehhe.. In Phoenix, some kid trained at the local "Shaolin Kung Fu" place and learned "death touch" Dim Mak and how to use "Chi". This guy claimed that he could even block strikes using nothing but Chi. Well, a match had been set up in the ring. After the bell rang, my friend just shuffled over and kicked the guy.. footjab to the sternum. It was enough to end the fight.

"You didn't focus your chi" said the guy's corner-man.

"Yes, and he forgot to block the kick as well." Said my couch.

I wonder why all of these "Chi" masters never seem to make it into the UFC or other martial art events and win. Why don't "chi" powers ever end up on tape or in the ring?

It was obviously not genuine shaolin kung fu. When I asked a shaolin master what the touch of death was, he basically made a face that looked like he had smelled a fart and went on to say "its not a touch, its a strike, a hard strike, fingers out, you rupture the persons spleen, very hard to do, not very practical".

No chi, just a hard strike that has a very low chance of chance of doing what it intends.

As for the UFC, I think it has made a farce of realistic fighting and melee combat. Original Shaolin Kung Fu was not intended for a cage with two men and a referee, it was intended for a battlefield for invaders. It was not only hand to hand melee combat (non committing strikes, etc) but had a major emphasis on weapons.

So yes, if I wanted to learn how to fight on a battlefield with no guns, I would learn Shaolin Kung Fu. If I wanted to learn how to fight in a cage with a referee with no clean break, I would learn one of those hybrid styles. In each case you have a fighting style which I have found doesn't represent realistic streetfights. I trained in each.

I carry a gun. No matter how good you are as a fighter, one lucky blow can lead to your demise at the hands of a street vandal who has never taken a class.

 

[OdderMensch]

Since this thread ent quickly to one liners My style makes great use of small sayings called 'kuen kuit" to help explain theorys.

here are a few :

"Fishbowl head, tofu body, Iron bridges."

"When an opponent comes, greet him. Be attentive while he is there and follow him as he leaves. Charge forward on loss of contact."

"See form, strike form. See shadow, strike shadow."



No chi, just a hard strike that has a very low chance of chance of doing what it intends.

One of the great things about kung fu (that you never see in compotitions, saddly) is that most strikes have dual, or more, uses. So a strike with a 'low probability' of sucess should have at least one other, nearly garunteed, target. Should.

 

[thaiboxerken]

"It was obviously not genuine shaolin kung fu"

That's not the point, the point is about chi being fluff.

"As for the UFC, I think it has made a farce of realistic fighting and melee combat. Original Shaolin Kung Fu was not intended for a cage with two men and a referee, it was intended for a battlefield for invaders. It was not only hand to hand melee combat (non committing strikes, etc) but had a major emphasis on weapons."

Yes, but one can only go so far to simulate a battle. There are NHB type of stick fighting tournaments, I don't see Shaolin guys showing up for these either.. and they use hard sticks in these tournaments. The point isn't that Shaolin isn't a bad art, my point is that "chi" powers don't show up in the real world..all evidence of "chi" is anecdotal.

"So yes, if I wanted to learn how to fight on a battlefield with no guns, I would learn Shaolin Kung Fu. If I wanted to learn how to fight in a cage with a referee with no clean break, I would learn one of those hybrid styles. In each case you have a fighting style which I have found doesn't represent realistic streetfights. I trained in each."

NHB sport is just another training method. I train in that as well as in weapons that are practical for the street. It's complimentary. And I do train with fire-arms as well, but not as often. My philosophy is to train to be prepared for all kinds of combat situations, but train more in the ones that are most likely.

"I carry a gun. No matter how good you are as a fighter, one lucky blow can lead to your demise at the hands of a street vandal who has never taken a class."

This is true, but one must be able to get to their gun to use it. I don't carry a gun because I often find myself in military bases and airports. Relying on a gun is not smart, in my opinion. A gun is only dangerous on one line at any given time, I'd rather have a knife if I'm within 20' or so.

"One of the great things about kung fu (that you never see in compotitions, saddly) is that most strikes have dual, or more, uses. "

This happens to be a concept that is present in most martial arts. I just don't toss in the "chi" fluff.