Marriage Poll

[ponderingturtle]

I've often wondered how effectively a line marriage can be created when the marriage consists of a not-for-profit corporation the various spouses join, with "shared" property being the property of the corporation, and decisions on that property being made by vote. The financial assets of the marriage persist in perpetuity, and can support for children much more reliably across generations than inheritance.

But, running a marriage like a democracy seems like a bad idea. Plus, hospitials often have that annoying policy of only allowing "family" in to see a patient, under an archaic definition of family.

Has any society really practiced line marriage?

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Has any society really practiced line marriage?

Not that I am aware of. Clan marriages, yes. I just find "tradiational" marriages to serve the interests of children very badly and the interests of the couple almost as badly. IMO, it's a hodge-podge of tradional practices and legal wranglings that doesn't do anyone any particular good.

 

[Complexity]

I've always liked some of Heinlein's ideas about marriage. It was in his The Moon is a Harsh Mistress that I first encountered line marriages.

Heinlein's idea of line marriage placed the welfare of children first.

I thought the idea was great. Still do.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

I've always liked some of Heinlein's ideas about marriage. It was in his The Moon is a Harsh Mistress that I first encountered line marriages.

Heinlein's idea of line marriage placed the welfare of children first.

I thought the idea was great. Still do.

Old Man Hienlein had some good ideas. Line Marriage, awesome. Time traveling to have sex with one's own mother, substantially less awesome.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Not that I am aware of. Clan marriages, yes. I just find "tradiational" marriages to serve the interests of children very badly and the interests of the couple almost as badly. IMO, it's a hodge-podge of tradional practices and legal wranglings that doesn't do anyone any particular good.

Why do you think that such an arrangement would work better? It really seems like a way to reintroduce the extended family.

 

[Puppycow]

Hmm. So far only 1 out of 38 for the status quo.

BTW, Is there any country that already allows gay marraige? IIRC it is legal now in Massachusetts, or is it? And there have been some other judges that made favorable rulings, but I don't know exacly what the laws are?

What about poly marriage? I guess that polygamy is legal in muslim countries, but I don't know about the details.

 

[Loss Leader]

Hmm. So far only 1 out of 38 for the status quo.

BTW, Is there any country that already allows gay marraige? IIRC it is legal now in Massachusetts, or is it? And there have been some other judges that made favorable rulings, but I don't know exacly what the laws are?

What about poly marriage? I guess that polygamy is legal in muslim countries, but I don't know about the details.

Massachusetts is the only state that allows gay marriage. Several states have some form of domestic partnership law and several more states have laws that say that they don't have to recognize other states' domestic partnerships. In Mass., at least one (and possibly both) parties has to live in the state and you can't move to the state just to get married.

Polygamy is legal nowhere in the US.

 

[Complexity]

Countries in which same-sex marriage is legal:

The Netherlands (2001)
Belgium (2003)
Canada (2005)
Spain (2005)
South Africa (2005)

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Why do you think that such an arrangement would work better? It really seems like a way to reintroduce the extended family.

Because I didn't get to pick my extended family. I wouldn't trust any of them with a kitten, much less the welfare of a child. Screw 'em. I want my life partners and fellow parents to be people I choose, not people thrust upon me by genetic happenstance.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Because I didn't get to pick my extended family. I wouldn't trust any of them with a kitten, much less the welfare of a child. Screw 'em. I want my life partners and fellow parents to be people I choose, not people thrust upon me by genetic happenstance.

The problem is that it does not seem to be a type of relationship that people would choose. Churches would also seem to provide some of the benefits, and in general any local social group.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

The problem is that it does not seem to be a type of relationship that people would choose. Churches would also seem to provide some of the benefits, and in general any local social group.

A: How would you know people won't chose it? It isn't permitted.

B: What the hell are you talking about? Are pastors and fellow parishioners co-habiting co-parents with full parental rights and shared property with their co-wives and co-husbands? Would you trust your priests and fellow parishioners with your property and children after you died?

 

[ponderingturtle]

A: How would you know people won't chose it? It isn't permitted.

People choose polygamous relationships that are not legally recognized, there are several members of this board in such relationships. People do not seem to be interested in such an arrangement.

B: What the hell are you talking about? Are pastors and fellow parishioners co-habiting co-parents with full parental rights and shared property with their co-wives and co-husbands? Would you trust your priests and fellow parishioners with your property and children after you died?

This is very much changing what your requirements are, and what you are looking for.

This seems that you are looking for a specific type of commune and such relationships are generally considered cults.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

People choose polygamous relationships that are not legally recognized, there are several members of this board in such relationships. People do not seem to be interested in such an arrangement.

Do I no constitute a person?

This is very much changing what your requirements are, and what you are looking for.

I did not such thing.

To quote myself.

One day, I want to raise children. I'm not particular about those kids having my genetic information, either. But, I don't want to be put in the worrisome position of a single parent or someone in a small, temporary marriage where my death could have serious negative consqeuences for those children. I'd much prefer a line marriage where capital is accumulated over generations, and the stablity of a long-term group marraige provides more security for children than two married people can provide.

This seems that you are looking for a specific type of commune and such relationships are generally considered cults.

I have no interest in forming a bond with other people based on religious ideology, I have no interest in sharing all my property, doing mindlessly what others say, or any of the touchstones of a cult. Now, if you're done waving pejoratives around, can we go on?

 

[Beth]

I chose two adults, any gender, because I think the legal and societal issues that are likely to result from polygamous marriage are more than our culture can handle at the moment. I think polygamous marriages in reality are not as stable as Heinleins fictional ones (be nice if they were, but the people I've known of that attempted polygamous relationships haven't had long term success) and there are a lot of potential problems that are not going to be easily or quickly resolved.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Do I no constitute a person?

Ah but I said people, that is a plural, so you would need massive scifi cloning technology for a line marriage with yourself as its primary constituent.

Now that would be creepy.

The point stands that I can point to poly marriages in effect actualy existing, where is your example of people who tried a line marriage?

I have no interest in forming a bond with other people based on religious ideology, I have no interest in sharing all my property, doing mindlessly what others say, or any of the touchstones of a cult. Now, if you're done waving pejoratives around, can we go on?

I am not trying to be pejorative, I am trying to find any real world example of your fictional marriage. If we are using fiction for our marriage choice why is Heinlein any better than the Gor books?

 

[Cuddles]

I think the answer depends on if you mean what marriage should be ideally, or what it should be at present or in the near future. Ideally, I think people should be allowed to marry whoever they feel like. However, that just isn't possible right now, because of two main problems with polygamous marriage. Firstly, most people don't like the sound of it. Public opinion on gay marriage has changed quite a bit recently, and I think that apart from fundamentalist religious types, no-one really has a problem with it. Polygamy is seen very differently, and any attempt to have polygamy legalised will fail, guaranteed. While this isn't necessarily an arguement against polygamy, since the same was true of gay marriage until recently, it is an argument against pushing for it now, since it would likely create a backlash against gays as well.

The other problem, as mentioned already, is that the mechanics of multiple marriages would have to be different from current marriage. An obvious problem with this is that most people don't like change. Simply changing "husband and wife" to "husband and husband" isn't a problem, but try to alter the whole marriage system and people will complain. In addition, the changes really aren't as simple as some people seem to be arguing. The rights afforded each partner, parenting issues, responsibilities and so on can no longer simply be split 50:50. What if one person wants to leave but the others don't? I'm sure all these problems can be worked out, but it is nowhere near as simple as simply altering the gender of a few words.

In addition, there is also the problem of what exacly is considered a polygamous marriage. Is it a group of people all together? Is it A and B both married to C, but not to each other? Is it a close relationship similar to a married couple, or is it a looser one similar to many current polygamous realationships? Can the group change as people enter of leave, or is it fixed at the time of marriage? If you choose just one definition then you will be excluding many other polygamous people, but trying to make a general enough version of marriage to encompass them all will require huge changes, and may not be possible at all if some definitions are mutually exclusive.

Incidentally, I assumed the question was more about what marriage should be in the near future, rather than ideally, so I voted for the second option.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Polygamy is a feature of any number of societies on this planet. One of the advantages of a this institution is that it leaves a sizeable number of young males at loose ends. What to do with these lads? Form an army. Find someone who needs conquering, or a place with a high wench to man ratio, or with gold in them thar hills, or a nicer view than you. Invade, and kick arses by harnessing the repressed libido. These at loose ends young men bring back war brides. They breed. This enriches the genetic pool for the victorious, though it rather dilutes it for the losers. No problem, it is a good species level survival strategy, and the losers get to meet Mr Darwin via the survival of the fittest rubric. Even the globalists would like this, in its form of creative destruction.

Where is the downside to polygamy, again?

DR

 

[ImaginalDisc]

I am not trying to be pejorative, I am trying to find any real world example of your fictional marriage. If we are using fiction for our marriage choice why is Heinlein any better than the Gor books?

Firstly, Heinlien proposed line marriages, so there's been precious little time for it to be enacted. Secondly, are you seriously equating a line marriage to Gor-like involuntary slavery? Thirdly, a line marriage preuspposes legal recognition (or common law recognition.) The point of a line marriage is to retain custody of the children and joint property through the line. Neither of those can be accomplished on the legal fringe.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Firstly, Heinlien proposed line marriages, so there's been precious little time for it to be enacted.

Nope, plenty of time. If it was so attractive I would have expected communes in the 60's and such to start such a thing. And if it worked they would be around today.

Secondly, are you seriously equating a line marriage to Gor-like involuntary slavery?

Not at all. There is much more evidence for the Gor type and how that actually exists and works. There are still parts of the world where many marriages start off with a kidnapping.

Thirdly, a line marriage preuspposes legal recognition (or common law recognition.) The point of a line marriage is to retain custody of the children and joint property through the line. Neither of those can be accomplished on the legal fringe.

Yes they can, not as effectively or as certainly, but it could be done if you got a group who wanted it.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Not at all. There is much more evidence for the Gor type and how that actually exists and works. There are still parts of the world where many marriages start off with a kidnapping.

Works?

You are a frightening individual.