Marriage Debate

Dave, say your son comes home with a nice woman. He’s in love with her and tells you he wants to spend the rest of his life with her. Then, through the course of conversation you find out she survived cancer but lost her reproductive anatomy in the process. Would you encourage him to leave her, and want society’s help?

Would you specifically want the law's help in splitting them up and encouraging your son to find someone else, someone he can be fertile with?
Good point and going back to the question would you want your bisexual child to chose the partner he/she could have children with or the gay partner, would most people want to even interfere in a child's decision to marry the fertile or infertile love if there were a choice? My son would make the decision and I'd never want to suggest one over the other.

If that's the case then it's a bit ingenuous that the reason you want your bisexual child to choose the non-gay partner is for the potential grandchildren. (Not to mention a lot of gay couples find ways to have children that at least have half of the biological germ of the couple.)
 
...I'm sure that you've heard the expression "If it looks like a duck, and it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, it's a duck." But have you ever heard the joke attributed to Abraham Lincoln: "How many legs does a dog have if you call his tail a leg? Four: calling a tail a leg doesn't make it one."....

I had a dog once that got a leg ripped off by a larger dog. She also had a cropped tail.

So, how many legs does a dog have?

Gotta count 'em to be sure................
 
Upchurch is bored or busy, (can't blame him in either case)
Gotta watch those blanket statements. The other option is that I was unexpectedly unable. I haven't had a consistent source of electricity since a rather nasty storm blew through St. Louis on Wednesday night. ...and again on Friday.

I'll get back into the swing of things once we've recovered from both the storm (damaged property) and lack of electricity (spoiled food).
 
Gwyn,
Let's be careful about the whole "equal" thing. "Separate but equal" is a term opponents like to use in order to draw an analogy with the racial equality movement, especially in the "Brown v. Board of Education" and "Plessy v, Ferguson" decisions. I go along with the term, because it's really pointless to argue whether on not it's applicable unless it is used to make a non-symbolic point, but it's not my term. It's yours.

However, since you've described what I think, let me correct the record. There are two ways that "separate but equal" isn't a good analogy. In the case of the racial civil rights movement, the issue at hand was that the government was in fact enforcing a separation. Blacks and whites wanted to mingle, but the government wasn't allowing it. Is that what's happening here? I think not. The separation happens naturally. The State of Vermont is acknowledging an existing separation, not imposing one.

As for equality, if you look at my writings, you'll see I use the phrase "equal rights, privileges, and obligations". In discussion with Upchurch, I acknowledged that the name change would be an "actual difference." What I have argued is that it is possible to have equal rights privileges and obligations, and if you did so, there would be no denial of fundamental rights by having the name change.

As it turns out, you could probably have unequal rights privileges and obligations without denying a fundamental right, but that's not the topic under discussion with Upchurch.

And as has already been noted by other posters, it most certainly is a moral judgment. Nor is there anything wrong with it as a judgment.

On this point, I must disagree. If I want my child to choose a female partner, it is not because I feel that choosing a male partner would be an immoral choice. There are lots of things I hope he is and I hope he does. Every parent wants certain things for his child. Every parent wants his child to be perfect, and every parent has a different idea of what "perfect" is. That doesn't mean that any deviation is immoral. My child is short right now, even compared to his age group. I hope he gets taller, when compared to his peers. That doesn't mean I think being short is immoral.

But when you expect the government to support it, you need to show reasons why there is an objective need for it in society, and if there is any religious view which disadvantaged by supporting it, there must be strict scrutiny on the reasons advanced.

Let's note that there is a confusion here between constitution law as embodied in Supreme Court precedents, and justice. While there is frequently a correlation between the two, it might cause some confusion. Something might be unconstitutional without being unjust.

I am assuming that your use of the phrase "strict scrutiny" is not accidental, and refers to the test used in deciding whether a law or policy is unconstitutional under the theory of substantive due process. If so, I don't think you've used the correct term. Strict scrutiny is only applied when there is a fundamental right involved. Some people will argue that having the name "marriage" applied to a relationship regardless of the gender of the individuals is a fundamental right, but I would not accept that without a compelling argument. That's where Upchurch would eventually have to go.

In the absence of a denial of a fundamental right, then rational basis is the appropriate test, and most people think there is a rational basis to distinguish between opposite sex and same sex unions. I won't go into my justification of such, but the New York Supreme Court did a find job of doing so a couple of weeks ago, in their ruling that New York's marriage laws were constitutional, and that it was an appropriate matter for the legislature to decide. (If you need a link, I'll provide it.)
 
It need not be religious to have a degree of sanctity. There is a secondary meaning to the word, "set apart" with the connotation "set apart as more disirable." If you want to "encourage him to do that," and you "want society's help," then you do want to preserve the sanctity of "one man, one woman marriage."

Good point. I actually like the terms "sanctity" and "sacred", and frequently use them in a non-religious context, but I avoid such on JREF because it inevitably suggests a correlation with religion whether or not one was intended.

It's true that I would like the "sanctity" of one man one woman relationships preserved, in the sense of setting apart. I think doing so would not violate any fundamental rights, and reserving the term "marriage" for man/woman relationships would be one way to encourage that (nonreligious) sanctity. As for "desirabilty", that's a subjective judgement, though not necessarily a moral one. When it comes to my own kid, a heterosexual relationship is something I desire for him. That's just me.
 
Dave, say your son comes home with a nice woman. He’s in love with her and tells you he wants to spend the rest of his life with her. Then, through the course of conversation you find out she survived cancer but lost her reproductive anatomy in the process. Would you encourage him to leave her, and want society’s help?

Would you specifically want the law's help in splitting them up and encouraging your son to find someone else, someone he can be fertile with?

I never said I wanted society's help splitting up anyone, regardless of gender or reproductive capacity. I did say I want society's help in encouraging him to choose a particular sort of partner. Specifically, a female one.

Would I be disappointed if he chose a nonfertile female as a partner? Yes. Would I want society's help in discouraging that choice? That's a very difficult question to answer. No one has put forward any actual proposal to do that, and I would have to judge based on the specific proposal.

(I can hear the knees jerking already.)
 
, would most people want to even interfere in a child's decision to marry the fertile or infertile love if there were a choice?

A lot of people might not admit it. Parents rarely openly object to their child's choice of a mate. The key word is "openly".
 
Meadmaker said:
On this point, I must disagree. If I want my child to choose a female partner, it is not because I feel that choosing a male partner would be an immoral choice. There are lots of things I hope he is and I hope he does. Every parent wants certain things for his child. Every parent wants his child to be perfect, and every parent has a different idea of what "perfect" is. That doesn't mean that any deviation is immoral.

As for "desirabilty", that's a subjective judgement, though not necessarily a moral one. When it comes to my own kid, a heterosexual relationship is something I desire for him. That's just me.

Perhaps it is not a choice based on your moral understanding of Good and Evil, but it does reflect a preference based on your values. You do believe that the one choice is in some way better than the other, even if the difference is not enough to call the one good and the other evil. In that sense, even though morals and values are the same thing, my choice of words may have been too strong. It does not otherwise affect my statement.

My child is short right now, even compared to his age group. I hope he gets taller, when compared to his peers. That doesn't mean I think being short is immoral.

But neither do you expect government institutions to "encourage" him to become taller.

It's true that I would like the "sanctity" of one man one woman relationships preserved, in the sense of setting apart. I think doing so would not violate any fundamental rights, and reserving the term "marriage" for man/woman relationships would be one way to encourage that (nonreligious) sanctity.

Suppose that before Loving v Virginia was decided, someone advanced the idea of civil unions for relationships where one or both partners was non-white, or even only for interracial relationships. Would the same arguments you are using apply in that case? If they would, did the Loving decision go too far, as many (apparently including you) feel that the Goodridge decision did? If they wouldn't, what are the fundamental differences in the two situations?
 
The fundamental difference in the two situations is whether or not a rational basis exists for distinguishing two sorts of unions. Is there a rational basis for identifying mixed race unions differently than same race unions? I would say no, based on the fact that "race" is a term with no real definition. By contrase, does "sex" have a definition that is meaningful? Even though there are rare cases where it is not possible to definitively state whether an individual is one or the other, those cases are extremely rare. For the vast majority of the human race, it is possible to distinguish two sexes, and there are characteristics of those two sexes that make it worthwhile to do so.

Furthermore, there's a simple matter of definition. Marriage has always meant a man and a woman. That was true even in Republican Rome, where in order for two men to be married, one had to take on the role of a woman. (Aside: I haven't actually seen translated documents that referred to same sex marriage of the time, so I'm going by secondary and tertiary sources. I am assuming they are accurate.) There was never a case that I'm aware of where unions between people of different races were ever called anything except "marriage".
 
The fundamental difference in the two situations is whether or not a rational basis exists for distinguishing two sorts of unions. Is there a rational basis for identifying mixed race unions differently than same race unions? I would say no, based on the fact that "race" is a term with no real definition. By contrase, does "sex" have a definition that is meaningful? Even though there are rare cases where it is not possible to definitively state whether an individual is one or the other, those cases are extremely rare. For the vast majority of the human race, it is possible to distinguish two sexes, and there are characteristics of those two sexes that make it worthwhile to do so.

You argument is nonsense. It is possible to distinguish between tall and short people. It is possible to distinguish between circumsized and uncircumsized men. Would you back a law which prohibits short people from marrying tall people, or a law which prohibits children of uncircumsized men from marrying the children of circumsized men? The feature may be clear, but your justification for excluding marriage rights is not.

Furthermore, there's a simple matter of definition. Marriage has always meant a man and a woman.
Women have historcally been chattel, and slavery has been approved of for much of history. Neither of these things are right. Stop trying to use tradition to justify bigotry. It's irrelevant whether an injustice is young, or whether it has a rich provenance.

I had thought we'd successfully disuaded you from this nonsense twenty pages ago.
 
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Pray tell, what are the others?

You haven't been dissuaded from your opinions just because the errors have been pointed out in the past, so it's probably not worth the effort to point them out now, but since you ask.

First, I'm not arguing for the exclusion of marriage rights. I'm arguing that the name "marriage" is not a fundamental right.

Second, I'm not arguing for any law that prohibits anyone from marrying anyone else. I am arguing that if you called a union by a different name, but gave it the same rights, privileges and obligations as "marriage", there wouldn't be any problem.

Third, I'm not using history to justify bigotry. I am using it to justify a definition. The word has always meant one thing. Letting it continue to mean the same thing would not deprive anyone of legal rights.

It's also worthwhile to note why I'm arguing that. If you would drop the insistence on the name, you could get the rights. That might not make a lot of sense to you, and I understand why, but why is the name more important than the rights? That's a question for you, not me.

Finally, attitudes toward women have varied in many ways in many different civilizations, but they have very rarely been "chattel".
 
First, I'm not arguing for the exclusion of marriage rights. I'm arguing that the name "marriage" is not a fundamental right.
Who owns the name "marriage"? Who determines who may use it and who may not?

Second, I'm not arguing for any law that prohibits anyone from marrying anyone else. I am arguing that if you called a union by a different name, but gave it the same rights, privileges and obligations as "marriage", there wouldn't be any problem.
Do you really believe that either the pro- or anti- sides of this debate would not have any problem if it were just a matter of the term used?

Third, I'm not using history to justify bigotry. I am using it to justify a definition. The word has always meant one thing. Letting it continue to mean the same thing would not deprive anyone of legal rights.
Your grasp of history has been consistently faulty.
 
Who owns the name "marriage"? Who determines who may use it and who may not?

We have free speech. You can use any word you want. The government determines what definition gets into the legal dictionaries.

Do you really believe that either the pro- or anti- sides of this debate would not have any problem if it were just a matter of the term used?

Yes. (There are more than two sides. There's a spectrum of opinion. The swing voters care. I believe if you gave up the word, you could get the rights. Why is the word more important than the rights?)

Your grasp of history has been consistently faulty.

Perhaps you can provide that long sought primary source document that describes homosexual marriage in any society, anywhere, except when referring to what those weirdos on the other side of the river do. If Scot couldn't do it, I don't think you can.
 
A lot of people might not admit it. Parents rarely openly object to their child's choice of a mate. The key word is "openly".
Objecting and preferring are two different issues. You addressed the wrong one.

It's pretty obvious from all the gay bashing that many a parent wouldn't want a gay child or have the bisexual child choose a gay partner.

But I was addressing the big lie it's all about grandkids.
 
"How many legs does a dog have if you call his tail a leg? Four: calling a tail a leg doesn't make it one."..
This joke is from the guy who started the civil war.
calling a same sex marriage a marriage does not make it one.
Now that the democrats have adopted gay marriage as part of their platform, this joke refers to the whole democrat party.
 
calling a same sex marriage a marriage does not make it one.
Just another flavor of this argument:

"No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
"I am Scottish, and I put sugar on my porridge."
"Well, no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."

Marriage is legal status, and if the state grants me that status, then it does make me married in the eyes of the state. My legal status is not dependent on whatever you think constitutes a True Marriage™.

QED
 
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calling a same sex marriage a marriage does not make it one.

There was a time when bumble bees did not meet the definition of flight. Some fools declared that bumble bees couldn't fly. Never mind one could see them fly.

If gays and lesbians are granted the legal status of marriage by the state then they are married. Your claim has no more validity than declaring that bumble bees cannot fly.

Bumble Bees can fly and gays and lesbians can get married in ever increasing numbers of states. It's no joke. It's equality. Freedom.
 

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