Marriage Debate

[Upchurch]

If only people cared more about the sinister threat of southpaws… I hear Upchurch is one of’em!!

That's a lie!!!

*awkwardly picks a pen with his right hand and makes unintelligible scribbles on a piece of paper*

 

[HeavyAaron]

You could bring up other genetically-inclined "vices" such as alcoholism and drug addiction instead.

Those might work... but they aren't as clear cut, I don't think. For all I know I'm gentically inclined to those things, but I'm very certain that I'm attracted to my WIFE.

However, the point that the pro-SSM crowd is trying to bring up is that we shouldn't discriminate against born traits that pose no threat to society. Is it that hard to understand that point?

Not in the least. Next question?

Aaron

 

[thaiboxerken]

So you understand the point, yet you bring up pedaphilia as a "counter"?

 

[Scot C. Trypal]

This seems obvious to me too, but thanks for the support.

Don't mention it. You gotta go with accurate .

I'll admit that it comes off provocative, yes. And while I deny it was intentionally so, I'll admit I did it knowingly. Fair enough?

Yep.

Left handedness is not a vice.

Not long ago it was. My pop tells me southpaws in his elementary school would have their left hands tied behind their backs if they were caught using them.

Okay folks... reminder... I was only pointing out that it is not prima facia "absurd" for a "born with" trait to be a vice, as was I.D.'s claim. I provided pedophilia as a counter example. I'm happy to entertain less offensive counter examples, but that's the one I came up with. And I stand by MY claim that pedophilia IS a counter example to I.D's assertion.

Aaron

Okay, I see now you needed something we'd all here considered a vice. I was blinded a bit by the history this comparison has; tough not to be.

 

[HeavyAaron]

So you understand the point, yet you bring up pedaphilia as a "counter"?

Are you maybe not paying attention?

I.D. make a claim that it's absurd to consider a "born with" trait a vice. He did not qualify that statement. He is welcome to qualify his statement now as a clarification as you have. But he has chosen to defend his claim instead.

Pedophilia is a counter example to I.D.'s specific claim, not a claim about SSM. Got it?

Aaron

 

[HeavyAaron]

Don't mention it. You gotta go with accurate .

I've become quite convinced that many posters here do not.

Not long ago it was. My pop tells me southpaws in his elementary school would have their left hands tied behind their backs if they were caught using them.

Yep, I agree with you. I think that's stupid. It's not a vice.

Okay, I see now you needed something we'd all here considered a vice. I was blinded a bit by the history this comparison has; tough not to be.

I understand. I don't envy the position society has placed you in.

I appologize for not being more sensitive. But I stand by my statements.

Aaron

 

[Upchurch]

Not long ago it was. My pop tells me southpaws in his elementary school would have their left hands tied behind their backs if they were caught using them.

That's right. My grandfather got his left hand slapped repeatedly when he used it to write.

 

[Upchurch]

Yep, I agree with you. I think that's stupid. It's not a vice.

No, not now. Back then, it was.

The social attributation of vice has changed, the genetic tendancy to be left handed has not. It's been accepted as part of the human condition.


...unless you want to cut paper, drink from a water fountain, or not get ink or graphite smeared all over your hand.

 

[Snide]

You can beg and scream with as many punctuation characters as you like and it will not motivate me to do that.

Two question marks prompted this response? Interesting...and perhaps telling.

 

[Scot C. Trypal]

That's a lie!!!

Everyone already knows, Upchurch. It’s clear by the way you type. Just come out!

I’m really not as hostile to you southpaws as I come off. Or do you people prefer to be called “left-handed” or something like “right-handedly-flawed”? I’m not really up on the PC terms.

Actually, some of my very best friends are left-handed. Like Suzan Johnson? Do you know her? She went to a movie with me once and is left-handed; I thought you might know her.

Of course, while I love you, the sinner, I can’t condone your sin. I’m sure we all here on the JREF would love and support you when you decide to leave your aberrant lifestyle. Keep that in mind; I know the life of those addicted to using their left-hand is filled with misery, but there is another way!

In the meantime, I can only hope you don’t become one of those militant southpaws, those who want to force their agenda down every American’s… um?… arm? I don’t think you’re the type, not once have you tried to recruit me. But you know the type; they claim they want to be treated with the dignity and parity they show others, but all they’re really after is endorsement of their perversion. Just the other day my kid came home from school with a left-handed pair of scissors and tells me his friend’s mom is left-handed! You people should just keep your personal predilection to yourself and keep your left-handed propaganda out of our schools, and we’d all get along better.

Don’t even get me started on the threat you pose to the sanctity of baseball.

PS. No, my aversion to left-handedness does not mean I’m secretly left handed! The mere idea of it makes me sick.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Are you maybe not paying attention?

I.D. make a claim that it's absurd to consider a "born with" trait a vice. He did not qualify that statement. He is welcome to qualify his statement now as a clarification as you have. But he has chosen to defend his claim instead.

Pedophilia is a counter example to I.D.'s specific claim, not a claim about SSM. Got it?

Aaron

I resent your putting words in my mouth. Homosexuality is no more a vice than than having red hair is a vice. Pedophilia however, is a crime which causes harm to children. Please attempt to demonstrate that homosexuality is more innately harmful than heterosexuality.

 

[HeavyAaron]

I resent your putting words in my mouth. Homosexuality is no more a vice than than having red hair is a vice. Pedophilia however, is a crime which causes harm to children. Please attempt to demonstrate that homosexuality is more innately harmful than heterosexuality.

Who's putting words in WHO'S mouth?

1) I never said you said homosexuality is a vice. Just opposite, really. You claimed it couldn't be a vice, because it's a trait one is born with. I'm merely contending that that isn't of itself evidense.

2) Why would I try to demonstrate that homosexuality is more harmful? When did I say it was?

I didn't even (nor would I) make the claim that homosexuality is a vice!

Aaron

 

[Upchurch]

Everyone already knows, Upchurch. It’s clear by the way you type. Just come out! {snip}

(how long have you been waiting to write something like that )

 

[HeavyAaron]

For the umteenth time, here is the assertion I disagree with:

... as though a person's sexuality, they way they were born, is some sort of vice is absurd.

This was I.D.'s reply to Hunster.

I am saying that this assertion would apply to pedophilia (i.e. it is a trait that a person is born with) and yet it's a vice. Therefore to claim that a born in trait is a vice cannot be prima facia absurd.

I am NOT supporting the notion that homosexuality is a vice. I am ONLY saying that because a characteristic is a trait one is born with is not evidence that it's NOT a vice. There is nothing absurd about the notion that a vice may be something someone is born with.

I seriously think I've been clear about this. Yet only Scott seems to understand what I'm saying.

Aaron

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Who's putting words in WHO'S mouth?

1) I never said you said homosexuality is a vice. Just opposite, really. You claimed it couldn't be a vice, because it's a trait one is born with. I'm merely contending that that isn't of itself evidense.

2) Why would I try to demonstrate that homosexuality is more harmful? When did I say it was?

I didn't even (nor would I) make the claim that homosexuality is a vice!

Aaron

For what purpose did you compare homosexuality to pedophilia if not to A) make a slippery slope logical fallacy argument or b) to insinuate tahat homosexuality is as wrong as pedophilia?

 

[HeavyAaron]

For what purpose did you compare homosexuality to pedophilia if not to A) make a slippery slope logical fallacy argument or b) to insinuate tahat homosexuality is as wrong as pedophilia?

For the purpose of showing that your assertion was flat out wrong. Again, I'm happy to use another trait which fits the bill of being innate and a vice. How many times must I reiterate these things? If I get bored, maybe I'll count.

Aaron

 

[Beth]

For what purpose did you compare homosexuality to pedophilia if not to A) make a slippery slope logical fallacy argument or b) to insinuate tahat homosexuality is as wrong as pedophilia?

My take on it was that he made the comparison to illustrate that there are vices that are innate. It is a counterexample to your contention that innate traits cannot be considered vices.

 

[HeavyAaron]

My take on it was that he made the comparison to illustrate that there are vices that are innate. It is a counterexample to your contention that innate traits cannot be considered vices.

Yay! I grant you the golden "understood Aaron" award. I just wish it were less prestigious.

Aaron

 

[Meadmaker]

If you go back to my post that was nearly coincident with Aaron's, I think it had a similar basis. I noted that ID had made an assertion, that homosexuality was determined at birth. People were born homosexual, and that made it absurd to ...whatever it was that was absurd. I can't remember exactly, and I'd hate to put words in IDs mouth. He resents that sort of thing, ya know.

It's simply unsupportable. The available research indicates that there is a genetic component to whatever it is that makes someone a homosexual. However, are you born a homosexual? No one knows. Are you born with genes that make you more likely to become homosexual? Research suggests that you are. Are there other factors that influence someone's sexual orientation? Research is inconclusive.

So what we have is ID making a specific claim. I didn't challenge that claim directly, but I did note a comparison between his claim that people were born homosexual, and my claim that sex, marriage and babies were all somehow interconnected. I think it's really funny that people would challenge the latter claim, while letting the former slide by.

 

[Terry]

I claim that it is irrelavant whether homosexuality is genetic, environmental, or a choice. It is consensual behavior between adults, and society has no logical reason to penalise it.