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Manhattan explosion

Are you ignorant of Mormon history? There were wars. If you think 'doing their part' is forcing other Mormons to believe as they believe, through magic it appears, then your standards are untenable.

Actually, the Mormons make a very good point of comparison. In about 140 years, they went from an occasionally violent sect to peaceful and constructive members of society. Whatever their plans for world domination, they have found a way to pursue them entirely within the law, through participation in the social institutions they share with their fellow citizens. They have even responded to societal pressure to moderate their doctrine, e.g., on racism. And that's pretty much universally true for all Mormons. There aren't Mormon factions out there still fighting the old Mormon wars, or starting new ones.

Islam, on the other hand, has had ten times as long to get to the same point and instead... We get ISIS.

Even Christianity seems to have reformed its violent ways, in less time than it's taking mainstream Islam.
 
Actually, the Mormons make a very good point of comparison. In about 140 years, they went from an occasionally violent sect to peaceful and constructive members of society. Whatever their plans for world domination, they have found a way to pursue them entirely within the law, through participation in the social institutions they share with their fellow citizens. They have even responded to societal pressure to moderate their doctrine, e.g., on racism. And that's pretty much universally true for all Mormons. There aren't Mormon factions out there still fighting the old Mormon wars, or starting new ones.

Islam, on the other hand, has had ten times as long to get to the same point and instead... We get ISIS.

Even Christianity seems to have reformed its violent ways, in less time than it's taking mainstream Islam.

To be fair, Mormons don't have the numbers to enforce their will on the greater population. You are confusing a "can't" for a "wouldn't."

Christianity is still very violent as evidenced by recent conflicts.
 
To be fair, Mormons don't have the numbers to enforce their will on the greater population. You are confusing a "can't" for a "wouldn't."

Christianity is still very violent as evidenced by recent conflicts.

That comparison needs some heavy duty work. (Nature of conflict in muslim world versus nature of conflict "Christian" countries got into/started versus original Christian wars like Crusades) aka currently you are comparison is not too valid.
 
Actually, the Mormons make a very good point of comparison. In about 140 years, they went from an occasionally violent sect to peaceful and constructive members of society. Whatever their plans for world domination, they have found a way to pursue them entirely within the law, through participation in the social institutions they share with their fellow citizens. They have even responded to societal pressure to moderate their doctrine, e.g., on racism. And that's pretty much universally true for all Mormons. There aren't Mormon factions out there still fighting the old Mormon wars, or starting new ones.

Islam, on the other hand, has had ten times as long to get to the same point and instead... We get ISIS.

Even Christianity seems to have reformed its violent ways, in less time than it's taking mainstream Islam.

Agreed. We do not see Christian or Mormon suicide bombers blowing up school buses, Police stations, farmers' markets or commuter trains. Neither do we have them beheading people or attacking people in the street with a machete or hijacking aeroplanes and flying them into buildings. However, we see plenty of Muslims doing things like these.
 
So much for that proposal.

Well, at least I tried.
McHrozni, you called it:
Thos seems like a good and very reasonable idea. I can't wait to see the excuses as to why it shouldn't be pursued.

McHrozni

All we have left, then, is what those arguing against me have proposed, which is this:
Whatever the problems with the status quo, I don't know of a "solution" that wouldn't make things worse in some way.

And this:
I think that much of what should be done is being done. It will take time and more people will die. There is no better solution. People get the 'tree of liberty' quote wrong a lot with this point. Sometimes the least harmful thing still includes lots of bad happening from time to time to avoid greater harms, like those gas chambers mentioned before.

Sit back and watch the deaths. Fine. I'm done with the suggestions. Personally, I think that human life outweighs human rights, but it seems I am in a minority. It's apparently much better to let people kill each other, because to try to do anything about it infringes human rights.
I will never accept that, but it is pointless continuing this.
 
Agreed. We do not see Christian or Mormon suicide bombers blowing up school buses, Police stations, farmers' markets or commuter trains. Neither do we have them beheading people or attacking people in the street with a machete or hijacking aeroplanes and flying them into buildings. However, we see plenty of Muslims doing things like these.

Also Arabic speaking people. Whenever I hear about beheadings or planes crashing into buildings I immediately think, "That guy probably spoke Arabic."

You'd be surprised how often this guess is correct. Now I know that association doesn't imply causation, but com'on, you gotta wonder what it is about that language which drives people to violence. I suspect it's all the primitive guttural, glottal stops.

(And no need to confuse things by pointing out there are different language "sects." I know that. But so what? They all use that squiggle-looking writing.)
 
That comparison needs some heavy duty work. (Nature of conflict in muslim world versus nature of conflict "Christian" countries got into/started versus original Christian wars like Crusades) aka currently you are comparison is not too valid.

How about Rwanda, Bosnia, N. Ireland, etc.
 
Personally, I think that human life outweighs human rights, but it seems I am in a minority.

There is a price for freedom. Most people would sacrifice a small measure of security for freedom. You disagree, and would give up all freedom for security, so you are in the minority.
 
How about Rwanda, Bosnia, N. Ireland, etc.

Rwanda is ethnical conflict, not religious. Yugoslavian civil war was mixed case. And didn't last long. N. Ireland is the only case where it was more religious, but it was not exported outside of GB. And it got solved in much shorter time.

So far not enough... you'll need better examples.
 
Rwanda is ethnical conflict, not religious. Yugoslavian civil war was mixed case. And didn't last long. N. Ireland is the only case where it was more religious, but it was not exported outside of GB. And it got solved in much shorter time.

So far not enough... you'll need better examples.

Northern island was about the political ownership of the north. Religion was just a tribal indicator, showing what side you were likely on due to heredity.
 
Rwanda is ethnical conflict, not religious. Yugoslavian civil war was mixed case. And didn't last long. N. Ireland is the only case where it was more religious, but it was not exported outside of GB. And it got solved in much shorter time.

So far not enough... you'll need better examples.

You just shot down your own argument. You can say those things about any conflict. The fact remains, those wars were fought on religious grounds. In Rwanda Catholic priests were wanted for crimes against humanity. In Bosnia there were two Christian factions and one Muslim faction all battling it out along religious lines. Yes, they were also divided down ethnic lines. In N. Ireland, two Christian factions.

Germany was a Catholic country prior to WWII. Hitler was Catholic and used his religion to justify his actions. But you won't recognize that as being a conflict caused by Christians because you have a anti-Islam ax to grind. It's called special pleading and it's a logical fallacy.
 
You just shot down your own argument. You can say those things about any conflict. The fact remains, those wars were fought on religious grounds. In Rwanda Catholic priests were wanted for crimes against humanity. In Bosnia there were two Christian factions and one Muslim faction all battling it out along religious lines. Yes, they were also divided down ethnic lines. In N. Ireland, two Christian factions.

Germany was a Catholic country prior to WWII. Hitler was Catholic and used his religion to justify his actions. But you won't recognize that as being a conflict caused by Christians because you have a anti-Islam ax to grind. It's called special pleading and it's a logical fallacy.

This is rubbish. By your standard, the US civil war was fought on religious grounds rather than over slavery or secession.

There are Christian religious wars (i.e. crusades, 30 years war) but you have to go back on time to find them.
 
You just shot down your own argument. You can say those things about any conflict. The fact remains, those wars were fought on religious grounds. In Rwanda Catholic priests were wanted for crimes against humanity. In Bosnia there were two Christian factions and one Muslim faction all battling it out along religious lines. Yes, they were also divided down ethnic lines. In N. Ireland, two Christian factions.

Germany was a Catholic country prior to WWII. Hitler was Catholic and used his religion to justify his actions. But you won't recognize that as being a conflict caused by Christians because you have a anti-Islam ax to grind. It's called special pleading and it's a logical fallacy.

Actually you just killed your own even more. There is a reason why I mentioned Crusades. That was true religious (or at least religious pretext) for series of conflicts. Rwanda nor NI or Balkan were about that.

Nope, still wrong comparision. In all three cases. And trying Second World war is even dumber then those three previous cases. it had nothing to do with religion at all! It wasn't even part of pretext for starting it!

Bloody hell, you are just trolling aren't you, because such dumb responses can't be meant seriously.

And don't try logical fallacies as you are guilty of one yourself.
 
This is rubbish. By your standard, the US civil war was fought on religious grounds rather than over slavery or secession.

<snip>


It should be noted that it was fifteen years before the Civil War that the Southern Baptists split off from all the other Baptists specifically because they believed that the Christian Bible sanctioned and supported slavery.

In what was a fiercely religious culture (Anyone who didn't attend church regularly was viewed with great suspicion, at best.) they provided the religious argument in favor of the practice which helped embolden its Southern defenders.

It helps a lot when your church tells you that your insistence on keeping slaves is Godly and Christian.

So although it may not have been fought strictly on religious grounds, it was one very large group of Christians who supplied the moral justification for slavery, the fundamental reason for the Civil War.
 
Actually, the Mormons make a very good point of comparison. In about 140 years, they went from an occasionally violent sect to peaceful and constructive members of society. Whatever their plans for world domination, they have found a way to pursue them entirely within the law, through participation in the social institutions they share with their fellow citizens. They have even responded to societal pressure to moderate their doctrine, e.g., on racism. And that's pretty much universally true for all Mormons. There aren't Mormon factions out there still fighting the old Mormon wars, or starting new ones.

Islam, on the other hand, has had ten times as long to get to the same point and instead... We get ISIS.

Even Christianity seems to have reformed its violent ways, in less time than it's taking mainstream Islam.


And if Islam had been founded in upstate New York 140 years ago, the same would have likely happened to it. But it was not, and has instead both influenced and been influenced by historical events. I keep using the Mormon example because, being local history, I've learned a lot about it and saw many parallels between it and Islam. Some guy says god said this for personal gain and over his life (and just after his life in the case of Mormonism) changed what god said to continue his personal gain. If they had been more successful, I doubt they would have tempered their ways, especially the child bride thing.

This is getting into subjects explored much more in depth in the religion and philosophy section, but how much a religion causes violence and how much it prevents it is, in my view, not strongly correlated to what it's main words say. All the major religions tend to have peace at their core. I don't think Catholicism caused Nazis, but likewise Buddhism didn't prevent Imperial Japan. They're all pretty adaptable and two-edged swords. Which is why so many Muslims are fighting Islamists and getting along pretty well in western societies.

Which actually brings it back to my main objection that everyone seems to want to dance around and whatabout; innocent Muslims deserve no punishment and they are not a rare breed. Do you think that they deserve punishment like some other posters here?
 
It should be noted that it was fifteen years before the Civil War that the Southern Baptists split off from all the other Baptists specifically because they believed that the Christian Bible sanctioned and supported slavery.

Interesting side topic. Funny how often even today people tend to forget there was little in the way of a market economy, and the definition of slaves circa the time of Jesus included what today are employees. Wage labor iirc arose sometime after the Black Plague, when farm labor was suddenly scarce.

It helps a lot when your church tells you that your insistence on keeping slaves is Godly and Christian.

True of all dogmas: they provide the mental shortcuts, the pat answers, the comebacks, all to justify whatever worldview is in play.

... This is getting into subjects explored much more in depth in the religion and philosophy section, but how much a religion causes violence and how much it prevents it is, in my view, not strongly correlated to what it's main words say. All the major religions tend to have peace at their core. I don't think Catholicism caused Nazis, but likewise Buddhism didn't prevent Imperial Japan. They're all pretty adaptable and two-edged swords. Which is why so many Muslims are fighting Islamists and getting along pretty well in western societies.

Here is your problem, a commonly held fallacy. Moreover, in general terms behavior has genetic, unconscious acquired heuristics, post-amygdala adjustments to automatic responses, and finally conscious, deliberate actions. Dogmas and creeds affect the last, or Nazis would have gassed no one, Pol Pot would have had no killing fields, and several major wars, both religious and political, would not have happened.

These differences in behavior are reflected in things like criminal law, distinguishing 2nd degree murder from 1st degree, premeditated stone cold killing. Accident, emotion, or conviction: degrees of personal accountability, from incidental to fully intentional.

Which actually brings it back to my main objection that everyone seems to want to dance around and whatabout; innocent Muslims deserve no punishment and they are not a rare breed. Do you think that they deserve punishment like some other posters here?

Agreed. Humans are responsible for personal actions alone. However, that there may be nice followers of any given creed does not say anything about that dogma, only that humans have a similar common tendency to listen to their natural empathy, an evolutionary adaptation required for social animals, in spite of what a madman might be preaching at the moment.
 
This is going to sound like a troll question but I'm actually serious. There are some Muslims around where I live. I see women in hijabs, and I used to see a guy connected with the local "Muslim Association" at the hospital.

Why am I not dead? Are they waiting to kill infidels until they can get away with it, and they're outnumbered and recognized here? How would a doctor reconcile his beliefs with helping infidels live?

When people say "Islam is a religion of peace," that fits logically with what I see around me, even if it really only means "Islam is a religion of peace until they sneak up one night and kerwham!"
 
Also Arabic speaking people. Whenever I hear about beheadings or planes crashing into buildings I immediately think, "That guy probably spoke Arabic."

You'd be surprised how often this guess is correct. Now I know that association doesn't imply causation, but com'on, you gotta wonder what it is about that language which drives people to violence. I suspect it's all the primitive guttural, glottal stops.

(And no need to confuse things by pointing out there are different language "sects." I know that. But so what? They all use that squiggle-looking writing.)

I theorize a great deal of the anger, Attachment and resentment in the Middle East is due to dehydration.
 

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