Manhattan explosion

[A'isha]

90% of my facebook friends are the moderate muslims Aicha holds up as paragons of virtue and "moderate Islam." These are upper middle class people who went to a very expensive, very exclusive private school under the british IGCSE education system. However, they are muslims first, and everything else after that. For every condemnation of the brutality being perpetrated, there are 10 diatribes of how "this is not Islam" and then 50 examples of people saying mean things about Islam, as if THAT'S the problem and not the killings that just happened.

They already apparently condemn those attacks and reject such violence as being part of Islam, from what you say. What do you want them to do?

Argue with jihadists and takfiri on Facebook? Urge Sisi's government to engage in even more of a security crackdown against terrorists? Take up arms themselves?

 

[quadraginta]

<snip>

And has the support of far fewer Muslims in the Muslim-majority countries that border them (there, in fact, seems to be a pretty direct connection between proximity to ISIS and the number of Muslims who have a really unfavorable view of ISIS).

Those Muslims are currently engaged in a continuing military action against ISIS (making up the vast majority of the combatants against ISIS, actually), and have managed to drive ISIS back from their farthest extent, reducing them to a hold on just one major city these days.

<snip>

I think it is telling how often this one simple fact is overlooked by the people who insist that the Muslim community as a whole are not doing enough to reject the actions and philosophies of ISIS and other such groups.

I am tempted to suspect that such omission is other than accidental.

 

[CosCos]

They already apparently condemn those attacks and reject such violence as being part of Islam, from what you say. What do you want them to do?

Argue with jihadists and takfiri on Facebook? Urge Sisi's government to engage in even more of a security crackdown against terrorists? Take up arms themselves?

Here is the point: point.

And here you are: you.

They are NOT condemning the attacks. They are condemning any condemnation of the attacks through their defense of their religion. In fact, the defense of the religion comes first and foremost. It's very similar to Obama's mindset (and your's presumably). The important thing after an Islamic terrorist attack is for everyone to remember that this is not Islam, we shouldn't retaliate against muslims, yada yada blah.

What do I want them to do? How about start creating an atmosphere where this **** isn't tolerated? How about start speaking up against the injustices that are perpetrated in the name of their religion instead of at best, silently condoning it by remaining quiet, or at worst actively condoning it. How about stop apologizing and pretending that the tenets of Islam are not at odds with western liberal societies? How about raising as loud an outcry about say, the carnage in Nice instead of the outcry about the burkini ban? How about stop pretending that Israel is the great satan and realize there is a very rotten satan in their very midst? If it came down to either the total annihilation of ISIS or the total annihilation of Israel, do you know how many moderate muslims would make the right choice? That right there should tell you who's on the right side of history.

There is a lot moderate muslims can do to start creating an atmosphere that is hostile to the more extreme proponents of their religion. But all we see is a circling of the wagons and a knee-jerk defense of their filthy ideology thereby enabling more of the same.


Btw, I see you trotting out polling data and statistics about attitudes in the arab world and elsewhere. Having lived in that society I can tell you those are as worthless as the pages of the Qoran.

 

[A'isha]

They are NOT condemning the attacks. They are condemning any condemnation of the attacks through their defense of their religion. In fact, the defense of the religion comes first and foremost. It's very similar to Obama's mindset (and your's presumably). The important thing after an Islamic terrorist attack is for everyone to remember that this is not Islam, we shouldn't retaliate against muslims, yada yada blah.

According to you, they are condemning the attacks, and even rejecting the claim by the perpetrators that the perpetrators are acting in the name of Islam. They just aren't rejecting their own religion too, which is apparently what you really want them to do even though they don't consider the actions of the terrorists to be part of that religion.

Btw, I see you trotting out polling data and statistics about attitudes in the arab world and elsewhere. Having lived in that society I can tell you those are as worthless as the pages of the Qoran.

I have family that still lives in Egypt, and I've seen no reason to reject the statistics I've cited.

 

[marplots]

McHrozni is absolutely correct. Islam IS the problem and no amount of dishonest statistic twisting and rhetoric will fix it. Until "moderate muslims" and the collective West unite to first, honestly identify the problem, and second, eradicate this cancer, the situation will only get worse. And that'll happen when pigs fly because we're asking people to go against their hard-wired religious beliefs.

Wrong. Islam is not the problem, terrorism is.

Islam is merely a proxy, a stand-in for the problem.

This is the real divide. Those who need a simple answer to a complex problem and target Islam to get it - vs - those capable of nuanced thought.

 

[Giz]

Wrong. Islam is not the problem, terrorism is.

Islam is merely a proxy, a stand-in for the problem.

This is the real divide. Those who need a simple answer to a complex problem and target Islam to get it - vs - those capable of nuanced thought.

Huh, and in world war 2 it wasn’t Nazi Germany that was the problem, it was war itself. That’s why targeting Germany was obviously just a simple answer to a complex, nuanced piece of baloney.

 

[A'isha]

Huh, and in world war 2 it wasn’t Nazi Germany that was the problem, it was war itself. That’s why targeting Germany was obviously just a simple answer to a complex, nuanced piece of baloney.

No, it was the Nazis in control of a nation-state that were the problem. Not everyone ethnically German. Or every European. Or every right-winger. Or every white person.

 

[marplots]

Huh, and in world war 2 it wasn’t Nazi Germany that was the problem, it was war itself. That’s why targeting Germany was obviously just a simple answer to a complex, nuanced piece of baloney.

That's a category error. Islam is the name of a religion. Nazi Germany is a place and a people - a physical reality.

We also stopped warring on them when they stopped fighting. So, yeah. You could say it was a war on war itself.

 

[Giz]

That's a category error. Islam is the name of a religion. Nazi Germany is a place and a people - a physical reality.

We also stopped warring on them when they stopped fighting. So, yeah. You could say it was a war on war itself.

Actually, I was pointing out your category error. "Terrorism" is a symptom. To make the symptom go away, we need to diagnose correctly and then remedy.

 

[A'isha]

That's a category error. Islam is the name of a religion. Nazi Germany is a place and a people - a physical reality.

We also stopped warring on them when they stopped fighting. So, yeah. You could say it was a war on war itself.

And note that we are at war with a physical reality: ISIS. And so are, as I pointed out, a whole lot of Muslims, too.

 

[marplots]

Actually, I was pointing out your category error. "Terrorism" is a symptom. To make the symptom go away, we need to diagnose correctly and then remedy.

A symptom of what? Islam?

 

[A'isha]

To make the symptom go away, we need to diagnose correctly and then remedy.

That's what marplots is talking about - "Islam" is an incorrect diagnosis, caused by your category error.

 

[Giz]

That's what marplots is talking about - "Islam" is an incorrect diagnosis, caused by your category error.

Islamist terrorism appears to be linked to certain teachings within Islam.

 

[mijopaalmc]

Islamist terrorism appears to be linked to certain teachings within Islam.

Certain teachings within certain branches of Islam.

 

[marplots]

Islamist terrorism appears to be linked to certain teachings within Islam.

Yes. That is why they call it Islamic terrorism. In the US we have domestic terrorists who reference the US Constitution. They point out certain passages to justify their acts.

 

[A'isha]

Islamist terrorism appears to be linked to certain teachings within Islam.

And since there are a lot of Muslims who either don't accept those teachings are a part of Islam at all or don't think those teachings mean they should be terrorists, and there are a rather large number of Muslims actively combating the terrorists, the problem is with those specific Muslims who believe those teachings mean they should be terrorists, not with Islam as a whole.

 

[A'isha]

Yes. That is why they call it Islamic terrorism. In the US we have domestic terrorists who reference the US Constitution. They point out certain passages to justify their acts.

Obviously the only way to stop people like this is to abolish the Constitution!

 

[Giz]

Yes. That is why they call it Islamic terrorism. In the US we have domestic terrorists who reference the US Constitution. They point out certain passages to justify their acts.

For someone who likes nuance, you seem to be in sore need of some. So here's a helping dose:


A diagnoses and/or remedy for Islamist terrorism may include Islamic teachings.

A diagnoses and/or remedy for domestic US terrorists who reference the Constitution is unlikely to involve Islamic teachings (but may well involve certain interpretations of the constitution).

 

[smartcooky]

Yes. That is why they call it Islamic terrorism. In the US we have domestic terrorists who reference the US Constitution. They point out certain passages to justify their acts.

Obviously the only way to stop people like this is to abolish the Constitution!

Strawman.

US Domestic terrorists do not go to [_{insert name of foreign country here]} and blow up school buses, or behead people.

 

[A'isha]

A diagnoses and/or remedy for Islamist terrorism may include Islamic teachings.

A diagnoses and/or remedy for domestic US terrorists who reference the Constitution is unlikely to involve Islamic teachings (but may well involve certain interpretations of the constitution).

Which means that the problem isn't those things in and of themselves, but with the interpretation of those things held by the terrorists.