Mancow got waterboarded

[pgwenthold]

That's weird. Are you missing a lung or part of one? I'm pretty sure the human body floats unless the lungs fill with water.

No, I just don't have enough bouyancy to the point where filling my lungs will keep me afloat.

My wife can float without trying. Staying afloat for me is so much work that I can only tread water for a minute.

I do better in the ocean, but even there, I am not very bouyant.

 

[pgwenthold]

Goodness, you have to be horizontal with your chest to the surface. You put your face up. You want your chest (IE lungs) to be the buoy.

The bolded part is where I fail.

I am able to float, marginally, if I keep flat, with my neck flat (face in the water). However, as soon as I lift my head, my body goes vertical and I torpedo straight down.

See the story above about the poster who sits on the bottom of the pool with a full set of lungs. That's me, too.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

The bolded part is where I fail.

I am able to float, marginally, if I keep flat, with my neck flat (face in the water). However, as soon as I lift my head, my body goes vertical and I torpedo straight down.

See the story above about the poster who sits on the bottom of the pool with a full set of lungs. That's me, too.

Have you really hyperinflated your lungs as much as possible when trying to float? It's not like one just takes in breath, you take in as big of a breath as you can.

I'm not sure which post has the link to the story you are referring to.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Your pathetic claims to special expertise regarding a subject toward which you have demonstrated ineptitude are utterly irrelevant here. To refresh your memory:

(Bolding for clarity). Expiratory reserve is not (individually) relevant here (i.e. to your cited figures). I interpreted your use of the term to mean that you were subtracting expiratory reserve from Total Lung Capacity. If that was not the case, my apologies, but your approximation is still poorly made (i.e. miscalculated) in that that extra .2 L is significant when one is talking about a maximum of 6 L.


Pity. Because if you had bothered to read -my- post with any degree of care, you would have noticed that I used your own miscalculated figures and assumptions.

Did I insult you somewhere before the post in question? You don't like my political position so you post unrelated insults? I didn't miscalculate anything and you are still repeating your initial mistaken assumption about what I posted.

Let's try this again.

Ok, first off: You're confusing terms here. Even at the maximum possible exhalation, there is still air in the lungs. That volume is known known as the residual volume.

I confused nothing. PLEASE address your confusion about what I said: I SUBTRACTED THE LITER OF AIR THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN INCLUDED IN THE DENSITY CALCULATION!

From the source I used to get body density:

...Body density was measured by the hydrodensitometry system of Akers and Buskirk (10). Underwater weight was recorded by platform force transducers during a 5-s maximal cxpiration.

Depending on what is meant by "deflated", expiratory reserve volume (amount of air generally present in the lungs at the low ebb of standard, unconscious breathing that might still be forcibly exhaled) should -also- apply.

When you dunk someone underwater to measure body volume, you tell them to exhale all the air they can. You don't use functional reserve capacity, you use maximum exhalation reserve capacity.

I repeat: I subtracted the residual volume. What are you suggesting: not to subtract the residual volume at all or trying to use functional reserve when the body density was calculated using maximal exhalation reserve volume? You have yet to explain why one would not subtract the residual lung volume. Are you unaware the body density calculations were based on total body volume and weight measurements, not on some calculation of body volume less residual air space. The body density measurement was an average of the whole, not the average of just fat and muscle.


I subtracted a liter of residual space that would have been included in total body density calculations. 6-1=5 liters of air one can add to one's lungs to counter the mass that exceeds water density in a 180lb lean male.

To get the 12 pounds over the baseline density of water I multiplied 180 pounds by the density > 1. And yes, I rounded up from .99999 and didn't worry about tiny fractions or temperature effects on the density of water and air. Whooptedo.

180lbs x .065 = 12lbs

There should be ~5 liters of air one can put in one's lungs to float the 12 pounds one's lean body weighs more than the water one is trying to float on. The 12 pounds is calculated on body density that already accounted for the 1 liter residual air in the lungs.


Now, aside from your needless uncalled for insults, I take it you are saying 5 liters of air should float about 11 pounds. It's close enough we probably need more refined measurements and testing to resolve the question with certainty. The smallest lungs and the densest body probably wouldn't float. I am surprised. I would have thought that would have been in more how to swim manuals and been common knowledge. I just checked a couple teach your child to float web pages and none mention that not all kids will be able to float when they become adults.

 

[NobbyNobbs]

In case you go back in the water, inflated lungs will keep people afloat if they don't have any counter weights on. Take a deep breath as you start to sink. Stay calm. Wait for your inflated lungs to bring you back to the surface. You can breathe short fast breaths and keep your lungs inflated while still breathing.

Goodness, you have to be horizontal with your chest to the surface. You put your face up. You want your chest (IE lungs) to be the buoy.

Maybe you guys need to practice floating. Have a swim teacher show you.

Ok, this is all anecdotal, but I like to think I have some measure of expertise in the field. I have been swimming since before I could walk. I was on 2 swim teams simultaneously. I have been a trained lifeguard. I have taught kids, teens, and adults, all of whom were terrified of the water, how to swim. I'd swim 20 laps fully clothed as a warm-up, and tread water for half an hour just to show it could be done. I know what I am talking about.

That said, there are sinkers and there are floaters. My father and I are sinkers. Even on my back, face up, lungs hyperinflated (yes, I know what "hyperinflated" is), I will slowly sink until I am laying on my back on the bottom. Some form of movement, whether feet or hands, is needed to counteract this. (My brother, on the other hand, is a major floater. You could practically sit on him and he still wouldn't sink.)

That said, I still managed to panic when I went under. At no point did I think "Ok, if I hyperinflate my lungs, I can hold my breath for awhile and..." No. All there was was the raw panic and need for air. And I was quite aware that if I continued going under, due to the weakness in my limbs I would not be able to swim up to get that extra breath. Whatever was already in my lungs was all I had to go on. The power to take another breath was not in my control.

Same goes for waterboarding. There is no time to think rationally. Whether or not you are allowed to breathe is not up to you, and it is this lack of control that digs into the deepest part of the reptilian part of our brains and tells our body to go nuts until we can breathe again.

End of derail, please?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Ok, this is all anecdotal, but I like to think I have some measure of expertise in the field. I have been swimming since before I could walk. I was on 2 swim teams simultaneously. I have been a trained lifeguard. I have taught kids, teens, and adults, all of whom were terrified of the water, how to swim. I'd swim 20 laps fully clothed as a warm-up, and tread water for half an hour just to show it could be done. I know what I am talking about.

That said, there are sinkers and there are floaters. My father and I are sinkers. Even on my back, face up, lungs hyperinflated (yes, I know what "hyperinflated" is), I will slowly sink until I am laying on my back on the bottom. Some form of movement, whether feet or hands, is needed to counteract this. (My brother, on the other hand, is a major floater. You could practically sit on him and he still wouldn't sink.)

That said, I still managed to panic when I went under. At no point did I think "Ok, if I hyperinflate my lungs, I can hold my breath for awhile and..." No. All there was was the raw panic and need for air. And I was quite aware that if I continued going under, due to the weakness in my limbs I would not be able to swim up to get that extra breath. Whatever was already in my lungs was all I had to go on. The power to take another breath was not in my control.

Just because I was skeptical and wanted further evidence is no reason to be insulted.

 

[Audible Click]

Goodness, you have to be horizontal with your chest to the surface. You put your face up. You want your chest (IE lungs) to be the buoy.

Maybe you guys need to practice floating. Have a swim teacher show you.

A bit OT but I have the opposite problem..I float too much. I have to be weighed down to snorkle. I swear if I was on the Titanic many survivors could have clung to me (jk) not taking into account the deadly temperature of the water. I'm hard to beat in a game of swimming pool vollyball.

 

[GreyICE]

Just because I was skeptical and wanted further evidence is no reason to be insulted.

Wait, someone states they know what they're talking about and you're insulted?

You must spend much of the day deeply offended.

 

[Shadowdweller]

Since this is getting spammy and off topic, I've taken the liberty of starting a new thread in the science section. Found here.

 

[Shadowdweller]

Yes, Skeptigirl, I hereby make a public apology for certain unnecessary and inflammatory aspects of my responses.

 

[NobbyNobbs]

Just because I was skeptical and wanted further evidence is no reason to be insulted.

I know I came across as a little uppity, and I apologize. This incident had just happened recently, and I'm still getting used to the idea that something I took for granted is also something I can't do anymore. It was very fresh in my mind, and when I read your posts they came across as "well, if you really knew what you're doing, you'd be fine", whether they were meant to come across that way or not.

Sorry.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I know I came across as a little uppity, and I apologize. This incident had just happened recently, and I'm still getting used to the idea that something I took for granted is also something I can't do anymore. It was very fresh in my mind, and when I read your posts they came across as "well, if you really knew what you're doing, you'd be fine", whether they were meant to come across that way or not.

Sorry.

I understand the reason you might be frustrated. But you took it wrong and I apologize for that.

Since I was unaware some people don't float with their lungs hyperinflated, I thought I was merely giving you a safety tip. In addition to infectious disease, I also focus on safety in my profession. I teach safety classes on a regular basis. It's hard to not give safety advice when the issues arise. Learning to float is one of those important lessons all kids should be taught. The number of needless pediatric drownings is unacceptably high.

I'm still wondering why I've never seen a swimming guide that noted not everyone can float.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Yes, Skeptigirl, I hereby make a public apology for certain unnecessary and inflammatory aspects of my responses.

Thank you and thanks for doing the calculation.

 

[pgwenthold]

Have you really hyperinflated your lungs as much as possible when trying to float? It's not like one just takes in breath, you take in as big of a breath as you can.

Do you really think I am stupid? Seriously, stop talking to us like we are idiots. (and YOU complained about being insulted?

BTW, my wife doesn't need that big of a breath to bob up. Doesn't matter what I do.

I'm not sure which post has the link to the story you are referring to.

I never said anything about a link.

 

[pgwenthold]

Just because I was skeptical and wanted further evidence is no reason to be insulted.

What did you expect, a picture of one of us lying on the bottom of the pool? Video proving that we have taken a sufficiently deep breath?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

What did you expect, a picture of one of us lying on the bottom of the pool? Video proving that we have taken a sufficiently deep breath?

A written source would be nice. I found no 'how to float' teaching guides that even mentioned, "BTW, not everyone can do this". It would seem to be a critical message in such an instruction manual.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Do you really think I am stupid? Seriously, stop talking to us like we are idiots. (and YOU complained about being insulted?

I can understand why my not believing you made you feel that way, however, I don't think it was unreasonable of me to be skeptical of this thing I've never heard of. Like I said above, why wouldn't a caveat be in at least one how to swim manual in the how to float section?

I never said anything about a link.

When you said, "See the story above", I thought you meant a story in an external link.

 

[Oliver]

BTW: Did Mancow an interview or post a Blog-entry or something about the Waterboarding afterwards?