Cont: Man shot, killed by off-duty Dallas police officer who walked into wrong apartment p2

[LTC8K6]

No kidding, I have had to fight with customers about putting a deadbolt in which requires a key from both sides. I ask them to envision trying to escape from a fire and yelling out 'honey, have you seen my keys?'

That's crazy.

 

[Thermal]

That's crazy.

Its usually doors with decorative glass inserts. They theorize that someone will break through two layers of glass and reach in to turn the deadbolt by hand. Some worry about toddlers locking people out. Both are possible, but getting trapped inside during an emergency trumps those concerns, IMO

 

[Whip]

It totally supports her story of being tired and going to the wrong apartment.

well, of course it does. that's her story.
if she really thought she was in her own apartment and being robbed, when asked, her immediate response should have been 1378. not, hold on let me look. as far as she knew, she shot a perp in her own apartment. for no reason since she had the ability to retreat.

 

[LTC8K6]

well, of course it does. that's her story.
if she really thought she was in her own apartment and being robbed, when asked, her immediate response should have been 1378. not, hold on let me look. as far as she knew, she shot a perp in her own apartment. for no reason since she had the ability to retreat.

Nope.

She knows she is not in her apartment by the furniture she can now see with the lights on. She immediately knows it's not 1378, before she calls 911.

She does not know which number it is until she looks at the door, prompted by the dispatcher.

 

[Thermal]

I believe that she thought she was in her apartment. I also believe she shot him dead because she wanted to, not because she was even a little bit in fear of anything. Murder 2

 

[Whip]

Nope.

She knows she is not in her apartment by the furniture she can now see with the lights on. She immediately knows it's not 1378, before she calls 911.

She does not know which number it is until she looks at the door, prompted by the dispatcher.

by that count she would have know by the red mat in a lit hallway as opposed to furniture in a dark room.

 

[William Parcher]

...Someone was recording her making the 911 call, so were evidently out in the hall fast...

You are talking about Bunny filming Guyger on the phone. It wasn't fast at all. By the time Bunny started filming the medics and police were already inside the apartment working on Jean. At that point I don't see why Guyger would still be on the phone to 911. Instead she is probably calling family and maybe close friends. That's why she's pacing in the hallway instead of being still inside Jean's apartment.

My estimate would be that Bunny starts filming about 6-8 minutes after the shots are fired.

 

[LTC8K6]

by that count she would have know by the red mat in a lit hallway as opposed to furniture in a dark room.

She doesn't notice until after the shooting, when she turns the lights on, imo.

Prior to that, she was still loopy from lack of sleep and did not notice the door number or mat.

The "burglar in her home", woke her up and she was focused on him at that point.

She's still guilty though.

She'll still do many years in jail.

 

[Thermal]

You are talking about Bunny filming Guyger on the phone. It wasn't fast at all. By the time Bunny started filming the medics and police were already inside the apartment working on Jean. At that point I don't see why Guyger would still be on the phone to 911. Instead she is probably calling family and maybe close friends. That's why she's pacing in the hallway instead of being still inside Jean's apartment.

My estimate would be that Bunny starts filming about 6-8 minutes after the shots are fired.

Has she said how long she or anyone else was in the hall before filming? I'm not confident the halls remained deserted right after the shots

 

[LTC8K6]

Has she said how long she or anyone else was in the hall before filming? I'm not confident the halls remained deserted right after the shots

It doesn't appear that the shots were heard by very many people?

Did anyone other than Guyger call 911?

Guyger would only need to be slightly past the doorway to have the sound of the gunshots greatly reduced. as far as the outside world is concerned.

I think shots fired two feet outside the doorway would be heard by a lot more people than shots fired two feet inside the doorway.

 

[William Parcher]

Has she said how long she or anyone else was in the hall before filming? I'm not confident the halls remained deserted right after the shots

She claims to be the only person who filmed Guyger at all. That is probably true. Her film doesn't show anyone other than Guyger, and you don't hear anyone else (witnesses) speaking either.

My opinion is that Bunny never heard the gunshots or Guyger yelling to Jean. Of all the witnesses, she lives the furthest from Jean and isn't even on the same floor.

 

[Bob001]

No kidding, I have had to fight with customers about putting a deadbolt in which requires a key from both sides. I ask them to envision trying to escape from a fire and yelling out 'honey, have you seen my keys?'

Are there glass panels in the door or next to it? That would be a pretty common reason to use a double cylinder deadbolt, and keeping a spare key near the door.

 

[Thermal]

Are there glass panels in the door or next to it? That would be a pretty common reason to use a double cylinder deadbolt, and keeping a spare key near the door.

Usually, and as I said, other customers are worried that a toddler will lock them out inadvertently. IME, bad guys don't go through glass at the front door. Too noisy and obvious. There are usually many easier ways to get in quietly and inconspicuously. Can't even remember the last time I dealt with a glass break in (repair on my end), but back door kick-ins and pry-ins galore

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

The 911 call will certainly help her case.

It may be more harmful than it initially appears.


Beneficial for her:

She called 911. Apparently right away. She didn't try to hide anything.

It reinforces that she really believed she was in her own apartment. She has to hold on to give the apartment number. You can hear in her voice when she says the apartment number the second time that she realizes that she is in the apartment immediately below hers. She says over and over again that she thought she was in her apartment. She thought she parked on the third floor. Near the end of the call she is obviously trying to figure out how her key opened the door if it wasn't her apartment.

At the end she says that she is so tired, supporting suspicions that it was exhaustion that caused her to miss otherwise noticeable details that resulted in her going to the wrong apartment.

She's distraught. She's remorseful. She keeps saying she is sorry.

The call appears to support her claim that she was attempting to render aid.


Unfavorable for her:

She doesn't says that the gun went off accidentally. She has never publicly made that claim and I don't think anyone believes that was the case, but the call would probably take that claim fully out of the picture.

She seems more concerned with how this will affect her than the man she shot. She keeps saying "I'm" ******, "I'm" going to lose my job, "I'm" done. She seems more sorry for herself than her victim.

Most important is what she didn't say. Although she says over and over and over that she thought she was in her apartment, she never says anything about why she actually shot him. She doesn't say that she thought he had a gun or that he was reaching for a weapon or that he was coming at her or even that the was not obeying commands. She gives no reason why deadly force would have been justified. She repeatedly says she thought she was in her apartment, which is her mind racing trying to "justify" or "explain" why this occurred. If Jean had done something that would have justified lethal force, we would expect that Guyger would have mentioned that while rationalizing her actions during the call. She did not.

 

[JoeMorgue]

It reinforces that she really believed she was in her own apartment.

Oh so it reinforces that thing that doesn't actually matter. Got it.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

It may be more harmful than it initially appears.


Beneficial for her:

She called 911. Apparently right away. She didn't try to hide anything.

It reinforces that she really believed she was in her own apartment. She has to hold on to give the apartment number. You can hear in her voice when she says the apartment number the second time that she realizes that she is in the apartment immediately below hers. She says over and over again that she thought she was in her apartment. She thought she parked on the third floor. Near the end of the call she is obviously trying to figure out how her key opened the door if it wasn't her apartment.

At the end she says that she is so tired, supporting suspicions that it was exhaustion that caused her to miss otherwise noticeable details that resulted in her going to the wrong apartment.

She's distraught. She's remorseful. She keeps saying she is sorry.

The call appears to support her claim that she was attempting to render aid.


Unfavorable for her:

She doesn't says that the gun went off accidentally. She has never publicly made that claim and I don't think anyone believes that was the case, but the call would probably take that claim fully out of the picture.

She seems more concerned with how this will affect her than the man she shot. She keeps saying "I'm" ******, "I'm" going to lose my job, "I'm" done. She seems more sorry for herself than her victim.

Most important is what she didn't say. Although she says over and over and over that she thought she was in her apartment, she never says anything about why she actually shot him. She doesn't say that she thought he had a gun or that he was reaching for a weapon or that he was coming at her or even that the was not obeying commands. She gives no reason why deadly force would have been justified. She repeatedly says she thought she was in her apartment, which is her mind racing trying to "justify" or "explain" why this occurred. If Jean had done something that would have justified lethal force, we would expect that Guyger would have mentioned that while rationalizing her actions during the call. She did not.

Confirms what I already suspected. This case won't be one of determining whether Guyger was guilty or not, but of determining what exact crime she is guilty of committing. There isn't any plausible scenario in which the killing was not unlawful. Short of a massive show of incompetence by the prosecutors, Guyger will be a convicted killer by the end of the trial.

That doesn't mean there isn't going to be a contested legal process. Guyger's defense will be working to have her convicted of the least severe form of murder/manslaughter possible given the evidence presented at trial. Parsing between the various charges available involving the unlawful killing of another could be the difference of many years of prison time.

Concepts like mens rea, as perhaps indicated by the 911 call right after the fact, will likely be very important.

 

[William Parcher]

You can hear in her voice when she says the apartment number the second time that she realizes that she is in the apartment immediately below hers.

Jean's apartment was actually above hers. She had parked on the 4th floor instead of the 3rd floor.

 

[bignickel]

The amusing thing to me for most of these "policeman shoot unarmed non-threat civilians", is that in almost every single one of them, if a civilian would have been the one pulling the trigger, prison time would pretty much be a guarantee.

Forget about holding the police to a higher standard; it's an incredibly hard today just to hold them to our standard.

 

[3point14]

The amusing thing to me for most of these "policeman shoot unarmed non-threat civilians", is that in almost every single one of them, if a civilian would have been the one pulling the trigger, prison time would pretty much be a guarantee.

Forget about holding the police to a higher standard; it's an incredibly hard today just to hold them to our standard.

To be fair, I think this would be much less of a problem if policemen were expected to undertake a higher burden of risk than civilians.

 

[William Parcher]

It does help assuage the argument that she went their deliberately to kill him. But I don't think that was a very commonly held belief.

I believe that the Jean Family attorney (Merritt) and claimed witness Bunny both still think that she went to his apartment for the purpose of murdering him knowing that it was his apartment. There have been other people in the press as well who think that it was a pre-planned murder. I don't know if the 911 call transcript would change their thinking.

She did administer first aid, and in her call you can hear her speaking to Jean both as encouraging him to remain alert (stay alive) and apologizing to him. It isn't typical for a murderer to want their victim to stay alive... to be alive... to be able to testify against them in court for what they have done.

The fact that Guyger wanted Jean to be alive is contrary to the theory that she went there to murder him. It could even be argued that wanting him to be alive is contrary to intentional murder with racist intent. We have people in this forum and elsewhere saying that she only pulled the trigger because Jean was black.