Man Shot Dead at Gun Show.

[GreNME]

Really? One person (out of millions of people) making a mistake like that "makes those who carry[] look bad"? I guess Mary Kay Letourneau makes teachers look bad?

How about, the actions of the individuals in question make those individuals look bad?

Nice, two knee-jerks from something I say in the same thread, in the same manner.

Look, if you can't figure out how this reflects negatively on those who do carry, I doubt I'm going to be able to explain it to you in a way you won't completely twist out of proportion and context anyway. Suffice to say there's a reason why folks who do something legitimately frown on those who do something that seems similar but results in bad consequences.

 

[Drudgewire]

Nice, two knee-jerks from something I say in the same thread, in the same manner.

Look, if you can't figure out how this reflects negatively on those who do carry, I doubt I'm going to be able to explain it to you in a way you won't completely twist out of proportion and context anyway. Suffice to say there's a reason why folks who do something legitimately frown on those who do something that seems similar but results in bad consequences.

I'm going to agree with GreNME here. Whether legitimate or justified or not, this sort of thing DOES reflect badly on those who carry. These are places that supposedly draw in the most responsible/knowledgeable firearm handlers outside of law enforcement, and even if it's not really representative of anything it provides anecdotal reinforcement to anyone who already has a preconception about guns.

And to answer MikeMagnum's counterpoint, Mary Kay Letourneau DOES negatively impact the overall view of teachers. Child molesting priests DO negatively affect the clergy as a whole. Is it fair? Hardly. But to suggest it doesn't happen is to ignore the way the world works.

On the topic of concealed carry, MSNBC has a fun article about it today. Both sides are represented and it does a pretty good job showing how each picks and chooses the stats they want and ignore the ones they don't while griping about how their opponents only focus on those. The overall conclusion is it doesn't really affect crime rates one way or the other (which considering the source I'll take as a win for gun supporters ).

 

[GreNME]

Thanks Drudgewire. I may not be in favor of carrying for myself, but I have little problem with almost all of the people I've known who have or do currently carry, so trying to turn what I was saying into somehow being against gun owners or gun shows in general is blowing what I'm saying out of proportion.

I have a pretty large dog, and the fact that there are a minority of people out there who have harbored and encouraged dangerous dogs I constantly have to be careful about where I go and what I do with my dog, because I'm aware of the (unjustified) impression that media hype and lobby organizations have given the general public about large dogs. I'm careful to not only be extra-responsible, but I also try to encourage people who decide to ask questions and express curiosity to keep my example in mind in the future because I know how poorly the bad examples reflect on people with dogs like mine. Judging from the circumstances as well as the word of plenty of family or friends who have carried, my experience with large dogs is not dissimilar from those who have and carry firearms (whether in law enforcement or not).

 

[roger]

I'm lost. How does 3 people who were not carrying (the vendor, the looker at the gun, and the victim) reflect badly on carrying????


Once again - it was a vendor's gun laying on the table for sale. It was zip-tied closed so you could not open the slide to check it if was empty. Thus, vendor zip-tied in a round. It has nothing to do with carry. There was no carrying, open or concealed, going on.

 

[Drudgewire]

I have a pretty large dog, and the fact that there are a minority of people out there who have harbored and encouraged dangerous dogs I constantly have to be careful about where I go and what I do with my dog, because I'm aware of the (unjustified) impression that media hype and lobby organizations have given the general public about large dogs. I'm careful to not only be extra-responsible, but I also try to encourage people who decide to ask questions and express curiosity to keep my example in mind in the future because I know how poorly the bad examples reflect on people with dogs like mine. Judging from the circumstances as well as the word of plenty of family or friends who have carried, my experience with large dogs is not dissimilar from those who have and carry firearms (whether in law enforcement or not).

That's a really good analogy. I'd imagine most of the millions of large dog owners who have a loving and trusting relationship with their animal get the same sick feeling in the pit of their stomach when they see a news story about a baby being mauled that gun owners do when we see one about reckless use of a firearm that results in an injury or fatality... because we know that even though it's nothing more than an isolated incident, the overblown reaction pointed at the rest of us is coming.

 

[GreNME]

That's a really good analogy. I'd imagine most of the millions of large dog owners who have a loving and trusting relationship with their animal get the same sick feeling in the pit of their stomach when they see a news story about a baby being mauled that gun owners do when we see one about reckless use of a firearm that results in an injury or fatality... because we know that even though it's nothing more than an isolated incident, the overblown reaction pointed at the rest of us is coming.

Exactly.

Interesting note: when people I know are protesting moves by various lobby groups (like HSUS, ASPCA, and PETA) in municipalities, many of the arguments being made are similar in logic to those opposing more firearms restrictions. Essentially, the same "don't bring new unenforceable/barely-enforceable laws into play, enforce the ones we already have" argument rings true for both groups. I've actually pointed this out to my better half, who is more liberal than my own centrist leanings, and she's stated that she sees the parallels as well.

My stance on animal welfare laws has actually colored my opinion on gun debates for this very reason.

-----

ETA:

I'm lost. How does 3 people who were not carrying (the vendor, the looker at the gun, and the victim) reflect badly on carrying????


Once again - it was a vendor's gun laying on the table for sale. It was zip-tied closed so you could not open the slide to check it if was empty. Thus, vendor zip-tied in a round. It has nothing to do with carry. There was no carrying, open or concealed, going on.

I wouldn't argue otherwise. However, try explaining that to someone who has only seen the news report that someone was shot at a gun show despite there being signs restricting any loaded weapons on premises.