Man Opens Fire In Delaware

[jj]

Another GST - Gun Spam Thread.

Really? This is "spam". News of people being killed by people who have no business owning a firearm is "spam"?

What's your point?

 

[Cleon]

Were you trading one in by chance? This seems.....odd. Dirty dealer is what I think.

How so? This is Georgia, state regs are pretty lax in the firearms department. I confirmed with several gun-toting coworkers that this isn't unusual.

 

[uk_dave]

Yeah, we'll agree every time on the NRA is acting foolish point.

Disgusting. I really wish I did not have to be a member of the NRA. They're making me almost sick to my stomach.

I'm curious as to why?

 

[remirol]

I'm curious as to why?

He can confirm, but I believe he and several others on these boards (or maybe it's just several people I know) go to a range where NRA membership is required for use. The NRA has a number of paths such as this to bolster its membership numbers and perceived political influence.

I may seem angry when discussing things here. By and large, I'm angry at the NRA, LaPierre, and those who share his extremist stance WRT firearms; I think they spend a great deal of time obstructing reasonable legislation (and arranging to have loopholes written into what would otherwise have been reasonable legislation) and preventing anything from actually being accomplished. IMO they only speak for the gun manufacturers these days, whose goal of course is only to sell more guns, regardless of end result.

Several of the "forced NRA" members have in fact posted here to say that they've written the NRA leadership, complained, etc., but I expect little will ever come of it; their money is locked in, after all.

There was a point in time when the NRA was a responsible organization that worked towards effective gun safety -- cf. the mentioned "hunter safety" classes in various threads. It could potentially return to being such, but only after a purge at the top is conducted of the extremists, frankly. Which will likely never happen, so we have to work around them to get anything done. Fortunately it looks like people are finally realizing that they _are_ unreasonable about things, so maybe the reasonable gun owners can have a discussion with the reasonable gun control proponents and come up with something to be done that can be effective, rather than paper-tiger legislation with gaping holes in it (see 'straw purchase').

 

[uk_dave]

So if, say, the local municipality, perhaps in co-operation with the police, were to open fire ranges do you think it is possible that the membership of the NRA would decline?

 

[remirol]

So if, say, the local municipality, perhaps in co-operation with the police, were to open fire ranges do you think it is possible that the membership of the NRA would decline?

Unknown without more information available about what the arrangement is between the NRA and range owner WRT the "membership required" bit -- specifically, what does the range owner get from the NRA for requiring it and would it allow the range owner to provide a better facility/more services/etc. than the municipal range at a lower/equivalent cost? Entering into a market at a disadvantage is not a good use of local money.

Also, would there be additional local regulations preventing or significantly discouraging a municipality from opening same due to liability, for example? Of course, there's also plain ol' loyalty, and plenty of those folks at the range are "gubmint distrusters", so you'd get refusal to go to the municipal range just because of its ownership and fears of "trackin'".

 

[triforcharity]

Or you could click the link, makes it a little easier. short story though, very small particles with information on them that can be sprayed or placed onto an item all but invisibly.

Oh crap, my bad! I meant to refresh my memory about Rand's point.

He was noting that different companies have different styles of s/n, that some companies reuse the same numbers for different models, that some have no serials (old weapons for instance) and that others have multiple numbers on different parts, which may be the same or different.

I like the idea. It wouldn't help much for older weapons, however, going forward, it would make a lot of sense.

Most guns now a days have matching serial numbers on the lower, the barrel, and the slide, but if the parts been altered or replaced, that may not be true. And it is factual that some manufacturers have reused serial numbers, but it is not a common practice that I am aware of.

Same as a car lience plate. Put the registration number of the microdots and when each gun is brought in to be registered it gets a number of microdots added with its registration number on them, and that is the number that goes into the DB. When a gun comes in, check for the microdots instead of the serial number for what to put into the search.

I like this idea. Or, simply require the gun manufacturers to do it. I don't like the idea of having to bring my weapon to a LE agency or courthouse to register it. It just makes me.....uneasy. Not sure why though.

Or, possibly make a standard serial number system for all guns with a destination of the US? Much like a VIN number on a vehicle.

 

[triforcharity]

If you don't want to be a member then leave, it's not like they're holding a gun to your head.

Well, not technically. I belong to a local pistol and gun club that is an NRA sponsored range. (Meaning, the NRA provides guidance and insurance for the range) And as a requirement to join, I have to be a member of the NRA.

However, what I did do, as opposed to making a yearly contribution, I was sponsored by another member for lifetime membership at a discount. So, I make no contributions, no donations, and have absolutely no NRA affiliation. I do use their discounts occasionally though.

 

[triforcharity]

How so? This is Georgia, state regs are pretty lax in the firearms department. I confirmed with several gun-toting coworkers that this isn't unusual.

Federal law requires any and all sales of firearms from an FFL to have a form 4473 completed, and pass a background check for disqualifying issues.

Just seems.....odd. Not the story, but the dealer. Was this recently?

 

[triforcharity]

He can confirm, but I believe he and several others on these boards (or maybe it's just several people I know) go to a range where NRA membership is required for use. The NRA has a number of paths such as this to bolster its membership numbers and perceived political influence.

I may seem angry when discussing things here. By and large, I'm angry at the NRA, LaPierre, and those who share his extremist stance WRT firearms; I think they spend a great deal of time obstructing reasonable legislation (and arranging to have loopholes written into what would otherwise have been reasonable legislation) and preventing anything from actually being accomplished. IMO they only speak for the gun manufacturers these days, whose goal of course is only to sell more guns, regardless of end result.

Several of the "forced NRA" members have in fact posted here to say that they've written the NRA leadership, complained, etc., but I expect little will ever come of it; their money is locked in, after all.

There was a point in time when the NRA was a responsible organization that worked towards effective gun safety -- cf. the mentioned "hunter safety" classes in various threads. It could potentially return to being such, but only after a purge at the top is conducted of the extremists, frankly. Which will likely never happen, so we have to work around them to get anything done. Fortunately it looks like people are finally realizing that they _are_ unreasonable about things, so maybe the reasonable gun owners can have a discussion with the reasonable gun control proponents and come up with something to be done that can be effective, rather than paper-tiger legislation with gaping holes in it (see 'straw purchase').

^^^^

This! Absolutely, 100%, this!

 

[triforcharity]

So if, say, the local municipality, perhaps in co-operation with the police, were to open fire ranges do you think it is possible that the membership of the NRA would decline?

Possibly, but the range that I shoot at, is the only range in the state that I am aware of (that isn't a police range) that has a 600 yard long range.

It really is a huge range (something like 200 acres or something) that has skeet shooting, trap, long range, shotgun, pistol, action, etc. All inclusive to say the least. And, it's private. Not just anyone can go and shoot there. In fact, you have to pass a proficiency exam to be able to join. (safely load and unload a semi auto handgun, revolver, and rifle or shotgun, and also show that you can fire those weapons safely) It really is well run. If the police had a similar, or better range, that was as inexpensive as the one I shoot at, (less than 200 per year) I would consider it. However, I love the range set up, the people who run the range, and the people whom shoot there.

 

[triforcharity]

Unknown without more information available about what the arrangement is between the NRA and range owner WRT the "membership required" bit -- specifically, what does the range owner get from the NRA for requiring it and would it allow the range owner to provide a better facility/more services/etc. than the municipal range at a lower/equivalent cost? Entering into a market at a disadvantage is not a good use of local money.

The NRA provides guidance for the rules of the range, the day to day operations (we still have a vote, as we ALL get a voice in how our range is ran, and can adapt rules or not as we all see fit) and also the liability insurance for the range itself, which is about $15,000 per year currently because the NRA subsidizes it for us. They also provide free classes for instructor and the like for our members. We do get a pretty good benefit from being NRA sponsored.

Also, would there be additional local regulations preventing or significantly discouraging a municipality from opening same due to liability, for example? Of course, there's also plain ol' loyalty, and plenty of those folks at the range are "gubmint distrusters", so you'd get refusal to go to the municipal range just because of its ownership and fears of "trackin'".

This is why many places do not open them. The liability is too much for even most cities to take on, as even the fees collected do not support it.

And yes, there are some of the "ebil gubmint" guys that would refuse. I however stay WAY away from them. They bore me with their ridiculous theories and nonsense.

 

[Cain]

Tragic incidents such as this have spurred me to pray for the safety of all our guns.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Oh crap, my bad! I meant to refresh my memory about Rand's point.

I did wonder...

I like the idea. It wouldn't help much for older weapons, however, going forward, it would make a lot of sense.

Most guns now a days have matching serial numbers on the lower, the barrel, and the slide, but if the parts been altered or replaced, that may not be true. And it is factual that some manufacturers have reused serial numbers, but it is not a common practice that I am aware of.

It would certainly be easier with the manufacturers doing it, but also needs a way to do the older guns if it is to work.

I like this idea. Or, simply require the gun manufacturers to do it. I don't like the idea of having to bring my weapon to a LE agency or courthouse to register it. It just makes me.....uneasy. Not sure why though.

Or, possibly make a standard serial number system for all guns with a destination of the US? Much like a VIN number on a vehicle.

How about if it was being done by a private company or organisation, for example (ha ha) the NRA or local ranges. Here diver's licencing is done via the AA, don't see why something similar couldn't be worked out. I already think that an Registration DB should be held by a private company so it's not an issue that its "in Government hands."

 

[NWO Sentryman]

How about if it was being done by a private company or organisation, for example (ha ha) the NRA or local ranges. Here diver's licencing is done via the AA, don't see why something similar couldn't be worked out. I already think that an Registration DB should be held by a private company so it's not an issue that its "in Government hands."

What's to prevent them from selling the data to unscrupulous third parties? I mean, other companies do the same thing with your personal details.

 

[Cleon]

Federal law requires any and all sales of firearms from an FFL to have a form 4473 completed, and pass a background check for disqualifying issues.

Just seems.....odd. Not the story, but the dealer. Was this recently?

Yeah, a few weeks ago. Mind you, this was essentially an individual sale; he posted a classified ad that he had a couple weapons for sale, we met at a range, I test-fired, gave him cash, that was it.

If we were talking high-value weapons, I probably would've been a little more suspicious. But I don't think there's a huge black market in <$200 Mosin Nagants.

 

[triforcharity]

Yeah, a few weeks ago. Mind you, this was essentially an individual sale; he posted a classified ad that he had a couple weapons for sale, we met at a range, I test-fired, gave him cash, that was it.

If we were talking high-value weapons, I probably would've been a little more suspicious. But I don't think there's a huge black market in <$200 Mosin Nagants.

Ok, gotcha. It was part of a private sale. And no, Nagants aren't found on the black market very often. Well built gun though.

Did I just completely miss the part about it being a private sale?

 

[NoahFence]

My question is how did he get the gun? We seem to have a system in which crazy felons find it trivial to obtain murder weapons. I'm sorry that you can't see a problem with that.

How can you be sure it was trivial? I could have very well been a royal pain in the ass.

 

[Cleon]

Ok, gotcha. It was part of a private sale. And no, Nagants aren't found on the black market very often. Well built gun though.

Did I just completely miss the part about it being a private sale?

I may not have been completely clear about that part. If so, my bad.

 

[Ranb]

My question is how did he get the gun? We seem to have a system in which crazy felons find it trivial to obtain murder weapons. I'm sorry that you can't see a problem with that.

What do you care? Just accuse one of the victims of supplying the murder weapon. It worked so well for you here; http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=8970077#post8970077 Hardly anyone complained about your so-called evidence or lack of compassion for the people killed.

Ranb