Man kills his children, is declared insane and gets escorted leaves 3 years later

[Joey McGee]

Schoenborn 'not criminally responsible' for murders

Man who found child-killer Schoenborn upset by escorted leaves

So basically the guy's common-law wife wouldn't get back together with him so he lost his mind and killed his three kids with knife while he was supposed to be taking care of them. He positioned them strangely for her to find, and ran into the woods where he hid like an animal. If he didn't know what he did was wrong why did he hide?

So now that he's on meds and acts like a normal person, he wants to go down to the mall and have a coffee like a normal person. And they just approved it. This is the first step towards him winning his freedom. How the hell is this possible and what are they possibly thinking?

The mother said this in her victim impact statement.

"Please, I beg you to help me feel safe again as well as the public and never let this evil out."

"I have to re-live what I saw when I found them dead every year, just so I can try to keep the man who took their little lives safely away from me and my family."

"I will never feel safe again because one day Allan will get out and I know now how violent and manipulative he is." and

"Please, I beg you to help me feel safe again as well as the public and never let this evil out."

Maybe some quality of life improvements are in order. Give the guy a computer and an internet connection, heavily monitored. Give him a job to do on the computer somehow. That's the most I would do for this man. In the old days we would have already done the humane thing and taken him out back like a rabid dog, glad we don't do that anymore but I'm not sure this is an improvement.

 

[BenBurch]

He will kill again. Or try to.

 

[qayak]

The OP is based completely on emotion. There are reasons the laws are the way they are and I doubt anyone will agree with each individual decision. This guy was found to be not criminally responsible which means, once he is no longer suffering from the problem, he will be free to go. That is as it should be and for the same reason we don't lock 6 year olds up for life either.

Why, if the original judge's decision was so bad, did the crown not appeal? That they didn't seems to indicate they accepted it as reasonable.

In the end, I am glad that his mental health issues are treatable. Do I want him on the street? Don't really have a problem as long as there is some monitoring.

 

[JamesDillon]

Why, if the original judge's decision was so bad, did the crown not appeal? That they didn't seems to indicate they accepted it as reasonable.

I'm not sure how the Canadian system works, but in the United States the prosecution cannot appeal a not guilty verdict.

In the end, I am glad that his mental health issues are treatable. Do I want him on the street? Don't really have a problem as long as there is some monitoring.

I basically agree with that and have no reason to think that release is inappropriate in this case, but I would recommend the documentary Dear Zachary for a compelling story of one instance in which the Canadian justice system very badly miscalculated the danger posed by a mentally ill defendant.

 

[Joey McGee]

The OP is based completely on emotion.

Really? Because I thought the justice and medical system here makes a lot of mistakes. The crown's psychiatrist said there was no way to know what was going on during the murders. The crown is really upset.

Crown counsel Lyle Hillaby warned that Schoenborn is "cagey and not to be trusted. We don't believe he was insane — he killed his own children in order to lash out at his wife. He is an angry and volatile individual."

A lot of people that know him are completely freaking out right now because they don't buy it. I thought that as a society we owe it to this woman not to let him out unmonitored, which could happen.

 

[WildCat]

The OP is based completely on emotion. There are reasons the laws are the way they are and I doubt anyone will agree with each individual decision. This guy was found to be not criminally responsible which means, once he is no longer suffering from the problem, he will be free to go. That is as it should be and for the same reason we don't lock 6 year olds up for life either.

Why, if the original judge's decision was so bad, did the crown not appeal? That they didn't seems to indicate they accepted it as reasonable.

In the end, I am glad that his mental health issues are treatable. Do I want him on the street? Don't really have a problem as long as there is some monitoring.

As soon as this guy goes off his meds he'll kill again. Not being criminally responsible doesn't mean he's safe to be walking the streets.

 

[Halfcentaur]

My grandfather murdered my grandmother one morning while my father and his brother and sister were eating breakfast, they were all under ten years old. This was in 1949 or 1950.
He apparently just freaked out and had a psychotic episode while she was cutting his hair, and he stabbed her in the throat with scissors while the children watched. The children grew up in a state institutionalized home.

Apparently my grandfather only served 2-3 years for criminal insanity and was released.
He died about ten years ago, I never met him. But he apparently kept his past a secret from his new wife and her family, and he never had another issue.

I've always wanted to learn about his incarceration and why he was released after spending a few years in a psyche ward.

 

[qayak]

Really? Because I thought the justice and medical system here makes a lot of mistakes.

I don't know how this is any answer to what I said. Even if the justice and medical systems make mistakes it doesn't mean your post is not based on emotion.

The crown's psychiatrist said there was no way to know what was going on during the murders.

Then why was the crown trying to say that Schoenborn committed the murders to get back at his wife? Their own psychiatrist disagreed with them.

The judge agreed with the defence psychiatrists so obviously thought the crown's interpretation was wrong.

The crown is really upset.

Of course, they lost a high profile case.

A lot of people that know him are completely freaking out right now because they don't buy it.

The people working with him 24/7 seem to disagree.

I thought that as a society we owe it to this woman not to let him out unmonitored, which could happen.

Agreed, but that's a different issue completely. I don't know how to make this any plainer than it is. Schoenborn is not a criminal, he is mentally ill. We do not keep patients in the hospital once they are healthy. If Schoenborn is healthy then it is time to start the process of releasing him.

That the crown, or some "people who know him" think he is lying, or faking, is pretty much irrelevent at this point.

 

[qayak]

As soon as this guy goes off his meds he'll kill again. Not being criminally responsible doesn't mean he's safe to be walking the streets.

Clarvoyant now, are we?

You are right, it doesn't mean he is safe to be walking the streets but that is what the gradual release system is for. You don't lock ill people up and throw away the key in a civilized society.

 

[Weak Kitten]

Oh, it seems pretty obvious that the defendant is not sane. However, I've never felt that being insane meant you should just let them go once they go on medications. Even if the balance is absolutely perfect (which it never is) there is still the chance of a missed dose or some external stress interfering. No, such people really do need to be placed someplace where they can be watched for the rest of their lives.

 

[WildCat]

Clarvoyant now, are we?

You are right, it doesn't mean he is safe to be walking the streets but that is what the gradual release system is for. You don't lock ill people up and throw away the key in a civilized society.

Also in a civilized society you don't let people walk the streets when remembering to take their meds is the only thing keeping them from killing members of said civilized society.

And psychotic people go off their meds a lot. Would you feel comfortable living next door to this guy?

 

[qayak]

I'm not sure how the Canadian system works, but in the United States the prosecution cannot appeal a not guilty verdict.

In Canada they can. Guy Paul Morin was acquitted in his first trial and the crown appealed. He was convicted in the second and then exonerated by DNA evidence 18 months later.

I basically agree with that and have no reason to think that release is inappropriate in this case, but I would recommend the documentary Dear Zachary for a compelling story of one instance in which the Canadian justice system very badly miscalculated the danger posed by a mentally ill defendant.

I think there is a lot wrong with the Canadian justice system but I don't think we are going to fix it by keeping mentally healthy people in hospitals. If this guy is healthy, as his doctors say, follow the procedure for letting him out. Anything else is an abuse of the system.

 

[fuelair]

Really? Because I thought the justice and medical system here makes a lot of mistakes. The crown's psychiatrist said there was no way to know what was going on during the murders. The crown is really upset.



A lot of people that know him are completely freaking out right now because they don't buy it. I thought that as a society we owe it to this woman not to let him out unmonitored, which could happen.

One of several reasons why, though I enjoy going to Canada occasionally, I would not want to live there. Or England for similar. (Not to say that softheadedness in the US hasn't had bad results also - but much fewer.)

 

[qayak]

Also in a civilized society you don't let people walk the streets when remembering to take their meds is the only thing keeping them from killing members of said civilized society.

And psychotic people go off their meds a lot. Would you feel comfortable living next door to this guy?

From the article:

"He will have no unnecessary access to the community and no overnight leaves but he could be given escorted day leaves, for example to a recreation centre or for fitness purposes,"

 

[dtugg]

I am glad I live in the United States where such a thing almost certainly would not fly. Hell, John Hinckely was not allowed out of the hospital until 18 years after the fact and he didn't even kill anyone.

 

[bigred]

How the hell is this possible and what are they possibly thinking?

They aren't. Also water is wet.

Looks like the good ol U.S. isn't the only country who's legal system has become a tragic farce. I wonder if it's because we're contagious.

 

[Joey McGee]

From the article:

This is just the first step towards eventual freedom, which I mentioned in the OP. We're well aware that this is monitored for now.

Wow and if we just buy everything that the experts say what would be the point in posting in a skeptical forum, seriously? It's not like there is a consensus among the experts here. We have many people involved in the case, the mother, people who know him, the guy who caught him, psychiatrists who interviewed him, saying this is all a giant lie and he's a monster. Siding with the experts just cause? Siding with the judge just because? I think at the very least there is wishful thinking going on. And this is a huge insult to the mother who's probably reliving everything right now.

 

[qayak]

This is just the first step towards eventual freedom, which I mentioned in the OP. We're well aware that this is monitored for now.

Wow and if we just buy everything that the experts say what would be the point in posting in a skeptical forum, seriously?

Well, if we're being serious how skeptical are you when your entire OP is based on emotion? Skeptics tend to take experts' opinions pretty seriously unless there is a flaw in their reasoning. No flaw has been shown. People who automatically doubt experts tend towards the conspiracy theorist end of the spectrum.

It's not like there is a consensus among the experts here. We have many people involved in the case, the mother, people who know him, the guy who caught him, psychiatrists who interviewed him, saying this is all a giant lie and he's a monster.

There is a reason these people [highlighted] don't get a say. Emotion isn't a good thing to base your criminal justice system on.

So, we are left with a discrepancy between the crown's shrink and the defense's shrink. They each had their opportunity to present their diagnosis and the judge accepted the defense's. That's what judges do, they rule on disputes.

Siding with the experts just cause? Siding with the judge just because?

I know! Silly me right. I mean, what kind of skeptic goes with the people best able to make the call when there is a much more emotional choice?

I think at the very least there is wishful thinking going on.

Wishful thinking how, because I think it is a good idea to follow proper procedures when it comes to governments locking up human beings? Silly me, again!

And this is a huge insult to the mother who's probably reliving everything right now.

Insult to the mother, how? Perhaps you are personally connected to the case and have allowed your emotions to run away with you. Whatever, this isn't about the mother. This is about Schoenborn being declared not responsible and the unfolding of events since.

It is as silly as the people who were all in a tizzy about Karla Homolka getting out of prison and carrying on with her life. You can't retroactively change the laws because someone you don't like is getting out of jail, or you think the system got hoodwinked. The judge knew all the possibilities when he made his decision and the crown chose not to appeal. This is the scenario we are left with and it will play out as decided by the people put in charge of deciding. The psychiatrists whose care Schoenborn is under.

 

[qayak]

I am glad I live in the United States where such a thing almost certainly would not fly. Hell, John Hinckely was not allowed out of the hospital until 18 years after the fact and he didn't even kill anyone.

Well, think about it, how many people get murdered in Canada as opposed to the U.S. and how many of those are by people declared not responsible.

I think you made a bad choice. Besides, bigred seems to disagree with you about the American justice system.

 

[geni]

Also in a civilized society you don't let people walk the streets when remembering to take their meds is the only thing keeping them from killing members of said civilized society.

That gets into kinda dicely territory since it allows the goverment to lock you up if they rule you insane even if you haven't done anything.